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Re:What Even Is a Number? by carapace on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:10PM (#19201814)
Ah! I wrote the below before seeing your comment:

Numbers don't exist. Take the number two. You can have two apples but that's not the number two. You can write the numeral "2", but that's not the number two. It's one line. The word "two" has three letters, it's obviously not the number two. In fact, the number two doesn't exist (or it's existence is not contingent on an arrangement of matter/energy. No pattern of matter/energy/space/time is actually THE number two.)

To me, it's wonderful to reflect on the epistemological status of numbers. They don't seem to exist, but we talk about them as if they do. Certainly they are useful. But they don't exist any more than, say, Sherlock Holmes does.

It's also much fun to reflect that, whatever the epistemological status of number, that status is shared by computer languages and algorithms and much else. E.g. the C language doesn't exist. The C standard(s) exist, many C compilers exist, lots and lots of C code exist, etc., but the language itself doesn't exist anywhere, any more than does the number two.

Re:What Even Is a Number? by TheOtherHobbes on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:56PM (#19203244)
Numbers don't exist - unless you're a Platonist.

The experience of numbers certainly exists. The reason you recognise one-ness and two-ness in objects is because your brain experiences a difference between one-object and a-pair-of-those-objects.

The experience is subjective. If you have two objects that are identical except for the fact that one is red and the other is blue, you can parse them as one-each-of-red-and-blue or as two-identical-things. Both interpretations are logically consistent, but the most useful interpretation depends on the context, and your specific needs as defined by the context.

It's easy to underestimate how subjective math is.

I've long suspected that this is why math eventually dissolves into incompleteness theorems. You can't prove a subjective experience, and eventually all mathematical reasoning reduces to subjectivity - even something basic like true/false, which is essentially just an interpretation of experience. (And can be very unreliable.)

Math is really an introspective map of experiences and processes that we find collectively consistent. We like to tell ourselves it's external and objective. But how can we tell the difference between true objectivity and subjective consistency when we only have shared human subjectivity to use as a reference?

Re:What Even Is a Number? by olooney on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:10PM (#19204356)
Proof that at least one number exists: Take for our logic first order logic with equality[1]. Take for our definition of the word "number" the Peano axioms[2]. The first Peano axiom is "0 is a natural number." Define "N" to be the unary relation "is a natural number." In our formal language, we write the first Peano axiom as "N0". By the principle of existential generalization[3], we have "∃x Nx", which we read as "there exists x such that x is a natural number." Q.E.D.

I assume you find the above deeply unsatisfying. Most people do. Yet I find it clarifies the matter entirely! If a person's conception of "number" is consistent with the Peano axioms, and if that person's use of the word "exists" includes the existential logical quantifier, then for that person "numbers exist" is a theorem. If a person uses other definitions, the matter may be otherwise.

[1]: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-classical/ [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peano_axioms [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existential_generalization

Re:What Even Is a Number? by johnfn on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:46PM (#19203157)
Does an apple exist? You can show me an apple, but I would wag my finger in exactly the same way you are to people trying to show you “one”. The apple you’re showing me is not the same thing as the word “apple” which is an abstract category that encompasses all types of apples - honeycrisp, Granny Smith, etc. You could say a honeycrisp is like an instance of apple which is a base class, so then it is indeed an apple. But then youd have to say an apple is also a “fruit” and also a “food” even though those words also encompass broad categories of things.

If you buy the above, you’d have to say that a single apple is also “one”. After all, it’s just another broad category that a single apple fits in to. If not, I think you’d have to reject the fact that a honeycrisp is an apple, which seems untenable.

Re:What Even Is a Number? by carapace on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:38PM (#19203607)
Reflecting on this stuff is my golf...

Even if I agree that THE number "one" is "just another broad category that a single apple fits in to", I think the epistemological status of the Broad Category is then itself just as problematical, existence-wise, as the original concept of "number", eh? We can at least display a pair of apples and "count" to "two" with them, etc. What hope do we have of enumerating (no pun intended) the Broad Category of "one"? And what do we gain from introducing it?

Re:What Even Is a Number? by jessermeyer on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:38PM (#19202036)
Numbers do not have a physical existence, but we can talk about them because in some capacity they absolutely do exist: conceptually.

There is the Tao and then there are the 10,000 things.

Re:What Even Is a Number? by tim333 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:27PM (#19203508)
Numbers exist in a different way to Sherlock Holmes who of course exists as a fictional character. One of the things people look for when searching radio signals for alien life is prime numbers as intelligent species would discover those but they are not produced by mechanical processes like quasars. How could we and they discover them if they don't exist at least in some form?
Re:What Even Is a Number? by stcredzero on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:38PM (#19202034)
Numbers don't exist.

Only for the sense of "exist" which is roughly equivalent to "can poke a hypothetical indestructible stick at it, given enough energy."

the C language doesn't exist. The C standard(s) exist, many C compilers exist, lots and lots of C code exist, etc., but the language itself doesn't exist anywhere, any more than does the number two.

For the purpose of tax law, software is defined as a "tangible good." However, in other areas of the law, it's considered intangible.