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Re:An Honest Living by keiferski on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:26AM (#19197723)
During and after college, I spent about four years working in a bakery. I pretty much ran the whole place - making the dough, creating the extra ingredients for pastries, running the cash register, talking to customers, and so on.

At the time, it didn't seem like a great job. But now, looking back after 5+ years of staring at a screen for 8 hours a day, I miss the physicality of being a baker. I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment.

Re:An Honest Living by Waterluvian on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:35AM (#19198001)
I will never get bored of the intellectual stimulace of my job, but yes, I did start to yearn for something more physical. Having kids pretty much solved that desire for me. I'm now a full time roboticist and a part time cook, people mover, negotiator, lab manager, construction foreman, fitness coach, gym spotter, goalie, wanderer, professional wrestler, cleaner, etc.

I'm surprised every week by what it's like to be a parent. I never expected it to round my life out in such a healthy way, both mentally and physically. Not just because I have offspring but because I'm doing a ton of things I haven't done in years, decades.

Re:An Honest Living by shandor on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:05AM (#19198338)
> Not just because I have offspring but because I'm doing a ton of things I haven't done in years, decades.

One of the great things in being a parent is that I can once more forget myself for hours when building snow castles or burrowing tunnels into a snow mountain at the end of the street, and no one bats an eye 'because kids'. Having kids also changes you in a way that you once more remember how awesome that was in the first place.

Re:An Honest Living by Waterluvian on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:14AM (#19198382)
Right now I'm lounging in a tent filled with pillows and blankets, in the basement, snuggling with my son as we watch cartoons (StoryBots is a masterpiece).

There are effects of this morning routine, which I cannot directly explain, that make my upcoming work day so easy and productive.

Re:An Honest Living by AlexTWithBeard on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @08:32AM (#19198805)
Exactly that.

Being a parent also gives you a great excuse to finally buy that drone!

Re:An Honest Living by nickelcitymario on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @08:42AM (#19198856)
I... I can't even...

Frack, you're winning at parenting. I'm a dad and have never ever even once thought of it in those terms. I've never once thought, "thank goodness I'm a parent, it gives me something physical to do."

Re:An Honest Living by hmhrex on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:30AM (#19199576)
Agreed. This is a good mindset shift that I will definitely be using.
Re:An Honest Living by lmohseni on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:50AM (#19200337)
Thank you for this comment, I've forwarded it to some new parents in my life. It reminds me of this quote from Heinlein: “A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
Re:An Honest Living by wcunning on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:44PM (#19200967)
There are a lot of skills in that list that I don't find essential, and a number that my personal list would add, but it's still one of my favorite quotes of all time. I might even call it the motto of my life.
Re:An Honest Living by ghostbrainalpha on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:07PM (#19200525)
That's an amazing quote, and it will probably hold up for decades if not centuries.... except the "plan an invasion" part. Not sure how intrinsic that is to the nature of a balanced human life.
Re:An Honest Living by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:49PM (#19201001)
I loved that quote when I was a teenager, but over time I came to hate it. We can't master everything. We don't live long enough, and besides, the list of things to master grows superlinearly, which means mastering even one thing requires specialization.

One should absolutely have a diverse set of skills and interest and knowledge, but it's also important to pick one or two things to truly master.

Re:An Honest Living by wrs on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:26PM (#19201937)
It doesn’t say to master all those things...in fact that’s the opposite of his point, which is to be reasonably competent at a lot of things rather than being helpless without a specialist around. Heinlein’s characters are (sometimes hilariously) self-sufficient, but respectful of true expertise.
Re:An Honest Living by Waterluvian on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @08:55PM (#19204913)
My perspective has been to be able to "speak the language". You may not be able to rebuild your engine, perform surgery, build your own PC, etc. But know enough that you can have a meaningful conversation with the experts.
Re:An Honest Living by bmj on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:41AM (#19200246)
Culturally, we are told to define ourselves by our jobs (what we do to provide money for our dependents or ourselves). We've lost the idea of vocation, and that vocation extends beyond the "9-to-5."

Parenting is absolutely a vocation, and your perspective toward it is quite refreshing.

Re:An Honest Living by gnclmorais on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @06:57AM (#19198311)
That’s a pretty nice report on being a parent, quite inspiring… Thank you.
Re:An Honest Living by nickpsecurity on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:50AM (#19199730)
"I'm now a full time roboticist and a part time cook, people mover, negotiator, lab manager, construction foreman, fitness coach, gym spotter, goalie, wanderer, professional wrestler, cleaner, etc."

This reminds me of that write-up that tried to put a price on a stay-at-home parent by listing all the activities they do, looking at the price of a specialist, and adding it up. I'm bookmarking yours for future conversations like that since it's shorter, has more activities, and is more fun to read. :)

Re:An Honest Living by Waterluvian on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @01:39PM (#19201522)
It's interesting you say that. My wife and I have made a very conscious decision about our income generation capabiltiy vs. being full-time parents.

She retired (at the old age of 29) to be a full-time mom. I found a job where I work 100% from home.

We have not attempted to quantify our decision. All we had to do was discuss it qualitatively and it was a no-brainer.

My oldest just turned 2, my youngest is almost 3 months. These are the greatest times of our lives. Why would I want to miss this for anything? No amount of money can replace these extra long mornings, lunchtime park/toboggan hill outings, and 4pm Mom-induced visits from my toddler who runs into my office, grabs my hand, and guides me to his building blocks.

Re:An Honest Living by pjmorris on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:09PM (#19205226)
I longed to be a scout 'back in the day', but it was beyond my family's means. Participating in the various camping, hiking, Pinewood Derby activities prompted by my son's participation in scouts is great for his confidence and enjoyment and for our time together, but it's adding something to my life that I never expected to have.
Re:An Honest Living by dmos62 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:00AM (#19197882)
> I hope the next computer revolution will untether computers from a sedentary work environment.

I'll leave Bret Victor's website [0] here for anyone interested in continuing this train of thought. Most of his work posted there revolves around this in some way, but just to link to a specific presentation here's Humane Representation of Thought [1].

Bret Victor changed what I think of computation technology's progress and what I expect of it. I'd go as far as to say that his presentations are eye openers.

[0] http://worrydream.com/ [1] https://vimeo.com/115154289

Re:An Honest Living by devchix on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:42PM (#19202078)
Thanks for this! I had no idea who this person is, the MagicInk paper is a wonderful, animated piece of writing to be sure.
Re:An Honest Living by Veen on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:47AM (#19198539)
Matthew B. Crawford's "Shop Class for Soulcraft" and "The World Beyond Your Head" are excellent explorations of how manual work can change your outlook on the world.

I've recently become obsessed with woodworking videos on YouTube. I think watching Paul Sellers spend two hours making a drawer with hand tools has become for me a cathartic release of my frustrations at spending the day in front of a screen interacting with nothing physical except a keyboard.

Re:An Honest Living by aaaaaaaaaaab on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @08:02AM (#19198613)
Koreans watch others eating [1], westerners watch others doing manual labor. Welcome to the future!

https://gizmodo.com/you-can-pay-to-watch-strangers-eat-on-th...

Re:An Honest Living by porpoisely on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:07AM (#19198976)
Americans do both. I love homesteading, hunting, fishing, outdoors cooking and outdoors eating videos.
Re:An Honest Living by decebalus1 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:34AM (#19200161)
Huh. Just the other day I listened to this podcast https://www.npr.org/2019/02/05/691697963/close-enough-the-lu... which discusses this exact new wave of living vicariously. Woodworking videos is one of the examples in the show. I highly recommend listening to it.
Re:An Honest Living by ip26 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:15AM (#19199028)
I have ancestors who were bakers. Unfortunately flour dust in the air 24/7 can lead to asthma and COPD, so that part is not all roses.
Re:An Honest Living by ak217 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:48AM (#19199244)
I imagine that part could be mitigated nowadays with ventilation and HEPA filters, no?

As an aside, I'm floored by the wholesomeness of this whole thread. It's inspiring.

Re:An Honest Living by ip26 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:18AM (#19199998)
That's a good point, I guess I don't really know. We see with soldering stations that to really remove the hazard, the ventilation hood must flow very high rates of air and be very close to the work. However flour is not toxic the same way lead is, so maybe general filtration & ventilation would be sufficient.
Re:An Honest Living by CobrastanJorji on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:45PM (#19200972)
Physicality is an amazing feeling. I think it's why so many programmers get into making stuff. When you usually spend weeks and weeks moving bits around, building even the smallest real thing can be immensely satisfying.
Re:An Honest Living by RickJWagner on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:52AM (#19198568)
You describe the bakery well. It does sound enticing.

Ah, the smell of baking bread!

Re:An Honest Living by porpoisely on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:03AM (#19198961)
And once you are back to being a baker, you'll look at a cushy sedentary office job with rose colored glasses.

The grass is always greener.

It's like when you are living your boring monotonous day to day life, you can't wait to go on an adventurous vacation. Once you are on vacation, you can't wait to get back to the comforts of your home.

First world problems.

Re:An Honest Living by asark on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:00AM (#19199831)
My favorite job ever, as far as the job itself, was working peon-tier helping to run a campground for a Summer. Only non-tech job I've ever had, had worked for years in tech before and years more after. Location was even pretty awful by outdoorsy standards, somewhere with mountains or... anything, really, would have been better still.

Too bad it paid, you know, a tenth of what I make programming.

It was great. No screens, just a normal-ass cash register to work from time to time. No sitting unless I wanted to, no meetings, golf cart to drive around once or twice a day. Firewood to carry. People to talk to. Plenty of time to read or write and no-one remotely interesting in claiming the copyright anything I did then, let alone during time I was off the clock. Pretty much nothing about the job was evil, while so many tech jobs are at least a little. None of that general soul-grime of corporate life.

I'd do that for a whole career if it paid anywhere near what software dev does. I'm only in software because 100% of the things I actually want to do pay half as well, at best, and some of them require a lot more up-front spending and time for education. Programming's great when I need to do it for a personal project. As a career, it blows, compensation aside. It's not even high status, for the most part, despite the comp.

Re:An Honest Living by darreld on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:47AM (#19200299)
I've said for years I'd love to work at Home Depot if they came up $100 an hour on the pay.
Re:An Honest Living by tomatotomato37 on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @11:56AM (#19200391)
I'd too love to work at a place where I could be part of the 95th percentile moving wood around all day.
Re:An Honest Living by ken on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:02AM (#19199356)
Or you won't. I traded my desk job for a more active one (my phone says I walked 10 miles at work on Friday), and I'm struggling to remember why I would ever have liked a desk job. (I got to move bits and pixels around in a computer, that nobody would ever see?) I'm loving it here.

Why would a person suggest to another that if they can't be happy where they are, they wouldn't be happy anywhere? Is "a sedentary office job" the summit of all work for all people? Do we not accept that people can have preferences?

I'm going to start a dating website called "The grass is always greener". Customers get matched with one person, ever.

Re:An Honest Living by justaguyhere on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:24AM (#19199083)
Maybe we shouldn't spend all our lives doing just one type of job and change careers. But then, it takes a long time to get good at something, so changing careers every 5 (or x) years is also not that good an option.
Re:An Honest Living by porpoisely on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @09:35AM (#19199156)
That is an interesting idea. But like you said, it takes time for you to get good at your job and more importantly, it takes time for you to increase you earnings. I don't know how feasible it would be for a senior developer making $200K per year to start off as an electrician's apprentice at $50K per year. Especially when you have a mortgage and family to provide for.

The only way your idea would work if somehow work and income were divorced from each other. That seems rather utopian than practical. Maybe if you were wealthy enough, you could try out multiple careers. Or maybe wait til retirement though that also seems impractical.

Re:An Honest Living by justaguyhere on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:05AM (#19199384)
I suppose it all depends on what an individual wants to optimize for. If one wants to optimize their life for happiness, then changing careers is an option even if it means less money. But if one wants to optimize for money/title etc (which is what most people do, right or wrong) then it is better to stick to one career and get as good at it as possible.
Re:An Honest Living by Qwertystop on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @10:19AM (#19199488)
Or if one lived more modestly. If the person making $200k/year lives on $100k/year and saves the rest, they'd still need to cut back a bit to drop to $50k/year, but not nearly so much.

Mortgage and family would make that more difficult, but from my perspective ($80k/year, single, and quite comfortably not spending even half of that), $200k/year certainly sounds "wealthy enough" to me.