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Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by c22 on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:02PM (#19194416)
No, it increases the trust of the system. Is it the best solution? Perhaps not, but it is not without utility.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by MereInterest on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:55PM (#19194838)
Run that one by me again? If tomorrow, a manufacturer announced the new Super Duper Quantum ASIC for Bitcoin that can perform hashes at 10 times less energy cost, everybody would switch over to it, and the total hashrate would increase 10x. Neither the number of miners, the proportion of mining held by each person, the distribution of mining rewards accumulated, or the total power consumption would be affected at all. Therefore, the amount of trust in the system would not be changed at all.

Cryptocurrencies are not secured by the hashrate, but by the cost of exceeding the hashrate of the network.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by c22 on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:02PM (#19194887)
I'm probably way out of my element here (I don't own bitcoin or play video games). Are you telling me that the power consumption of the bitcoin network is constant and based solely on the most popular bitcoin mining hardware?
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by MereInterest on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:33PM (#19195109)
I wouldn't say that it is constant, as the energy consumption has been increasing. However, it does not depend on the efficiency of the hardware being used.

Think of bitcoin mining as a raffle. You can buy as many raffle tickets as you want, and so can everybody else. Each raffle ticket costs $1, and so people buy tickets until the prizes start getting spread out too much. The next day, though, the raffle tickets are only 10 cents apiece. However, the prizes are still the same, so the break-even point is still the same when expressed in dollar value. As a result, the same amount of money is spent, just buying 10x as many raffle tickets.

In this analogy, each hash performed by the miners is buying a raffle ticket. The block reward is the prize at the end of the raffle. Going from CPU mining to GPU mining to ASIC mining each increase the efficiency of performing a hash, analogous to lowering the price of a raffle ticket. Just as lowering the price of each raffle ticket results in an increase in the number of ticket sales without changing the total value of ticket sales, so decreasing the cost of each hash results in an increased number of hashes performed, without changing the total amount of electricity spent to perform those hashes.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by c22 on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:10PM (#19195320)
Okay, I think I get it. So the power consumption of the network is based only on the power available to miners, which is probably reasonably constant since the mining pool doesn't change much? So putting aside market hype the main thing impacting the value of a bitcoin should be the cost of this power?

I agree it doesn't sound like the most efficient system and these incentives are somewhat perverse, but there weren't any systems like this before bitcoin. If cryptocurrencies do have valuable attributes that cannot be attained by conventional currencies and bitcoin introduced these concepts to the world in the first viable way and the popularity of these networks has lead to people researching more efficient analogues such as proof of stake and the techniques mentioned in the original article then can't we still say that the existence of bitcoin had a utilitarian benefit for the world? If the popularity of bitcoin goes down and these more efficient networks supplant it then the total energy-expenditure should be minuscule compared to the total energy usage of all humans over all time. Given the the rate at which these technologies seem to be maturing it will likely still be a lower expenditure than bootstrapping many other equally useless human endeavors.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by MereInterest on Monday February 18, 2019 @07:57PM (#19195881)
It is a new application, but I'm not sold on it at all. I don't see anything that cryptocurrencies do that fiat currencies do not do better. Irreversible transactions, for example, is touted as a benefit, but I believe is a major disadvantage. As a result of them, consumer protections against theft and fraud are impossible to implement. Any reverse payment requires the cooperation of the fraudulent actor.

Furthermore, the decentralized nature of bitcoin cannot last indefinitely, and arguably has already ended. All mining nodes need to have a record of all balances, in order to verify that incoming transactions are valid. This places a limit on the ability to contribute to trust by mining, and will result in further centralization of miners. If a cryptocurrency were to replace fiat currency, it would not be a change from centralized currency to decentralized. Rather, it would be a from a centralized currency controlled by an elected government to a centralized currency controlled by conglomerations of miners.

I have done my best to understand their use, their applications, and their limits. With that in mind, I believe cryptocurrencies to be a obfuscated form of pyramid scheme, with additional externalities of heavy power use.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by ric2b on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:39PM (#19204545)
The trust in the system doesn't scale with hashrate, it scales with required cost to attack it.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by root_axis on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:06PM (#19194455)
"Increasing trust" doesn't add value if the system is already sufficiently trustworthy for the task of processing transactions. Based on that reasoning the cost should ('should' meaning: it is beneficial) increase forever because an infinite amount of energy burned is infinitely trustworthy.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by sgeisler on Monday February 18, 2019 @06:14PM (#19195359)
> sufficiently trustworthy

Trustworthiness always depends on your use case.

If you are transacting small amounts of money (less than is spent on mining a block) then waiting for 3 confirmations is probably sufficient to consider the transaction settled. But what if you send a transaction with a 100 times higher value than goes into mining a block then you will need to wait for over 100 confirmations till you can be sure it doesn't make economical sense for anyone to try to double spend your transaction by orphaning the first block your transaction was in (with a very simplified incentive model not taking into account other transactions in these blocks).

Thus the money spent on mining blocks determines how much value can be transferred in one block. Allowing for higher value transactions is good thing imo, is necessary for its success as digital gold and therefore justifies the higher energy consumption (especially since there don't seem to be any alternatives with similarly good or better robustness against attacks yet, proof of stake can't work under the same assumptions bitcoin does [1]).

[1] https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/new-pos.pdf

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by root_axis on Monday February 18, 2019 @11:40PM (#19196639)
The fact that larger transactions require more power to transmit securely only demonstrates my point further.

> Allowing for higher value transactions is good thing imo

PoW systems are the only ones where "higher value transactions" need security proportional to their size.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by sgeisler on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:15AM (#19196768)
@root_axis (since I can't reply directly):

> PoW systems are the only ones where "higher value transactions" need security proportional to their size.

Every other currency is either backed by men with guns and transactions are reversible (fiat) or you have to spend a roughly proportional amount of resources securing it (e.g. gold). I didn't look at the data, but judging by US military spending I'd guess that the strongest economies also have to spend the most to keep their system safe.

You can still argue that the assumption of pseudonymous actors in bitcoin makes the proportion factor larger (=system less efficient) than for systems that can use identities and attribution and I'd agree with that. But that's only because it can operate with less assumptions (no identities), which I see as a feature.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by root_axis on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @12:59AM (#19196946)
> Every other currency is either backed by men with guns?

So what? Men with guns are also the foundation of property rights, law and order, and national sovereignty; they are not an extra cost of fiat currency, they underpin the government's ability to maintain order and structure within society. I shouldn't have to explicitly point this out.

> transactions are reversible (fiat)

Cash payments are not reversible. Reversible payments are also a feature that nearly everyone wants.

> spend a roughly proportional amount of resources securing it (e.g. gold).

Gold is not a currency.

> that's only because it can operate with less assumptions (no identities), which I see as a feature

Untrue. A centralized anonymous payment system is technically possible, the limitations are strictly legal.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by ric2b on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @07:40PM (#19204554)
> Gold is not a currency.

It was for millennia.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by c22 on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:14PM (#19194521)
Is bitcoin sufficiently trustworthy without proof of work? I'm not a bitcoin expert, but my understanding was that this is an integral part of the trust model. If so then we're just back to talking about inefficiencies.

I can't imagine the processing being done by my computer right now is all strictly necessary to read and post these comments, and I'd wager this site is more efficient than most these days. Still I accept reality and pay these costs in order to talk with you on the internet because this is the world we live in. It looks like these nice people at MIT are working on some of the inefficiencies of cryptocurrencies, so let's rejoice.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by root_axis on Monday February 18, 2019 @04:22PM (#19194577)
> Is bitcoin sufficiently trustworthy without proof of work? I'm not a bitcoin expert, but my understanding was that this is an integral part of the trust model. If so then we're just back to talking about inefficiencies.

Yes, that's exactly the point. Bitcoin is insanely inefficient because PoW is insanely inefficient. Unlike other "inefficiencies" where there is a logical relationship between "energy spent" and "useful work accomplished", with PoW there is no such relationship since the energy isn't spent doing useful work (i.e. processing transactions). Yes, more power into the network makes it "more secure" by making it "more expensive" to perform a 51% attack. The increased expense is distributed across the network in the form of increased difficulty. If a 51% attack was already implausible (which most bitcoin enthusiasts would say is true), then making it even more expensive doesn't actually do anything useful.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by sjeohp on Monday February 18, 2019 @05:15PM (#19194985)
Mining gold gets harder over time. If you want more gold that's the price you pay.

Trust-less consensus may be the same. Nature doesn't care either way.

Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by ForHackernews on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @06:13AM (#19198162)
Nature has nothing to do with it. Bitcoin is a poorly-engineered human-designed, human-built system.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by sjeohp on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @02:13PM (#19201842)
Math has everything to do with nature.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by ForHackernews on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @04:21PM (#19202934)
Endlessly re-calculating SHA-256 over and over is not some beautiful mathematical principle.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by sjeohp on Tuesday February 19, 2019 @05:31PM (#19203545)
Find a better way of guaranteeing trust-less asynchronous consensus then talk.
Re:A faster, more efficient cryptocurrency by ggggtez on Monday February 18, 2019 @10:54PM (#19196457)
>the processing being done by my computer right now

Well it depends what you are considering. Arguably, yes, your computer finished the HTTPS connection long before you got around to reading the words on the page itself. But the scale of an idle CPU compared to a 100% CPU is not even close. Mine is sitting at 2% use while I type this.

You could put that money into mining actual gold, and literally make 4x as much as mining bitcoin [0].

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/nov/05/energy-co...