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Re:German for Programmers by levosmetalo on Friday February 08, 2019 @03:56AM (#19112534)
While it's true that people that want to understand you would understand you, even if you speak wrong, it's not something "not to worry about".

Using the wrong gender or articles quickly gives a hint that you are some lowly educated factory worker living in Germany for 20 years and not caring to learn the language.

Re:German for Programmers by pluma on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:21AM (#19112658)
That's true but I'd say it's less about appearing lowly educated than about reinforcing your foreign-ness.

A lot of Germans are to varying degrees prejudiced against foreigners, especially if you're brown or can be read as Turkish/Arabic or Eastern European. If you pass as white European you're more likely to be read as educated but still learning the language whereas otherwise your language problems are more likely to be attributed to a general lack of intelligence and education.

I'm not saying all Germans think this but there are certain cultural clichés around uneducated "southerners" (generally Italy, Greece, Turkey but also Arabs and everything West of France) and Eastern Europeans speaking broken German the same way Americans have stereotypes about people speaking AAVE.

In other words broken German has a cultural stigma but depending on how you are read you may be less impacted by it. If your career is going to involve speaking German a lot, it's probably advantageous to speak it well.

Re:German for Programmers by ascar on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:35AM (#19112721)
It also shifts with time. 30 years back the prejudice would have been flipped. As a white immigrant you would've probably been a low educated russian or polish worker, while with a taint you would've been Italian and much more respected.

It's the general bad practice of putting individuals into larger groups with a stigma based on visual appearance.

I think a lot of the resentment about bad German skills in my generation (80s/90s) comes from 10+ year residents and 2nd generation immigrants not capable of speaking our language correctly.

Re:German for Programmers by lwkl on Friday February 08, 2019 @11:08AM (#19115515)
I mean in the seventies and eighties there was a lot of racism against Spaniards and Italians. Nowadays this is gone. They are allowed to be proud of their heritage.

We also had a lot of highly educated migrants from Yugoslavia back in the seventies and they were appreciated back then. But after the Balkan wars they were suddenly the bad guys despite some of them being perfectly integrated in our society and sometimes being the third generation to live here.

It's funny how fast the perception shifts and how quickly we are to judge on the prejudices we have of a group of people and not on the individual.

Re:German for Programmers by jacobush on Friday February 08, 2019 @07:36AM (#19113589)
Some comes from the attitude of creating the group "2nd generation immigrants". In the US, that's basically not a thing.

There are reasons of course, just sayin'.

Re:German for Programmers by allendoerfer on Friday February 08, 2019 @08:57AM (#19114095)
I would say, in the US it is at the same time "not a thing" and "an even bigger thing". I guess it is easier to be seen as American, but on the other hand, those Americans claim they are Irish/German/Italian (and the corresponding percentages), because of some great-grandfather. Germany historically also has had immigrants (e.g. Ruhr area with it's mines) but those people don't think they are Polish/Romanian, because of their ancestors.
Re:German for Programmers by Nasrudith on Friday February 08, 2019 @08:20AM (#19113851)
Yeah birthright citizenship for one. Complaining that people who don't belong to a group don't identify with it and act like it is just stupid.

Doing so while not allowing them is cruel and stupid like punching someone for having a black eye and justifying it with their face looking weird.

Re:German for Programmers by madez on Friday February 08, 2019 @05:58PM (#19119478)
There is the option to obtain the citizenship following the procedure for it.

There is the option to leave the country.

It doesn't sound entirely unreasonable or unfair to me.

Re:German for Programmers by jacobush on Friday February 08, 2019 @06:06PM (#19119512)
There is also the option of being a citizen by birth, yet be called 2nd generation immigrant, or heck, third.
Re:German for Programmers by madez on Friday February 08, 2019 @06:34PM (#19119659)
Yes, there is racism and ethnic stigmatization in Germany. It even goes both ways. It's a sad mess.
Re:German for Programmers by pasabagi on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:27AM (#19112686)
It's also sometimes fun to play with this kind of prejudice: I'm from the UK, but if I'm having a bad language day, a bad hair day, or I'm wearing my work clothes, I get some people being very unfriendly, often rude, because I'm clearly Eastern European. As soon as it comes up that I'm from the UK, the reactions totally change.
Re:German for Programmers by close04 on Friday February 08, 2019 @09:59AM (#19114732)
> or Eastern European. If you pass as white European

Eastern Europeans are very much white. Their accent might give them away but certainly not the skin complexion.

Re:German for Programmers by jacobush on Friday February 08, 2019 @07:34AM (#19113574)
East of France?
Re:German for Programmers by pluma on Friday February 08, 2019 @09:44AM (#19114563)
West of France. Spain, Portugal and possibly the Southern parts of France. But ethnic stereotypes are of course silly and somewhat arbitrary so I don't think it's possible to draw a clear line.

"Hedonistic lazy people with dark hair who steal our daughters" seems to be the general idea. This is somewhat distinct from "lazy people with light hair who steal our things", which seems to be the stereotype against Eastern Europeans.

Re:German for Programmers by nkrisc on Friday February 08, 2019 @08:32AM (#19113929)
Maybe they meant Spain and Portugal?
Re:German for Programmers by graup on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:42AM (#19112751)
I agree. People will understand you, but they will also judge you. In my experience, Germans are much more ready to notice "wrong German" than English speakers do with "wrong English". This is just a sad fact.

My aunt, an American who has lived in German-speaking countries for 10+ years and can say almost everything she'd want to tells me she still gets treated less seriously because of subtle mistakes like that in her speech.

Re:German for Programmers by madez on Friday February 08, 2019 @07:16AM (#19113479)
My experience is that after some time and level of proficiency in a language, some just stop learning and caring. I think that is a pity because I believe that with revisiting the rules in interesting exercises one can fix the mistakes even later.

It may help your Aunt to learn German (again) with beginners books. There are good self-learner books with interesting exercises. They are less than 20€ per level and if you are already good, it should be easy to do multiple pages per hour.

It would be important for a native speaker to check the answers, though. And also the solutions should be crosschecked with the books solutions, if there are any, because many Germans don't know all the rules correctly. If in doubt, just stick with the book.

Re:German for Programmers by objektif on Friday February 08, 2019 @11:05AM (#19115467)
Why do you think Americans judge less or do not judge?
Re:German for Programmers by mk89 on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:05AM (#19112570)
I agree.

Probably it's good to know that it doesn't matter, just so that you feel less fearful and tend to speak more, even wrong....

Re:German for Programmers by wolfgke on Friday February 08, 2019 @06:14AM (#19113184)
> Probably it's good to know that it doesn't matter, just so that you feel less fearful and tend to speak more, even wrong....

Native German speaker here: I disagree with all the sentiment of "less fear". Better concentrate on your ability to formulate grammatically correct sentences.

In school, I often felt that the German grammar works somewhat like a mathematical proof system (and asked myself why German grammar is not part of math classes). When studying mathematics, you first have to learn to write correct proofs. It makes no sense to try learn something more deep in mathematics if you have difficulties writing elementary proofs.

For German, it is the same: first learn the internal structure (grammar) of the language (just like predicate logic in mathematics) and just like thinking how to express something that you want to prove in predicate logic, find out how to formulate something in German's grammatical structure.

Only after this elementary step, you can begin with more complicated things.

Re:German for Programmers by FabHK on Friday February 08, 2019 @06:50AM (#19113371)
Funny thing though is that most native speakers (of any language) generally don't know the grammar explicitly. They know it implicitly insofar as they speak correctly, but they'll generally be hard pressed to explain why they say things the way they say them.
Re:German for Programmers by jlangenauer on Friday February 08, 2019 @04:08AM (#19112586)
Yes, but I find that you fill in the blanks as you use and are exposed to German.