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Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by zbruhnke on Monday February 04, 2019 @01:57PM (#19079432)
Man it would be pretty amazing to be able to submit a Pull Request to the IRS.

Matt Cutts if you're reading this please help!

On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by dragontamer on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:01PM (#19079481)
> On another note, I'm not sure I agree on the electrical grid or traffic controls being open sourced ... could imagine some nefarious things happening as a result of that

Any more nefarious things that can be done with your Linux OS server talking to your Open Source Chromium / Firefox web browser?

Open Source doesn't necessarily mean less secure.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by keithnz on Monday February 04, 2019 @03:45PM (#19080455)
I'm not sure these things are equivalent, many people use a browser and Linux, not many people need to use electrical grid software.

However, I would imagine it would still be beneficial for open analysis though. I'm not sure security through obscurity is a good option when there are motivated nefarious actors involved. But that's more of a "gut feel" than based on any evidence

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by zbruhnke on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:14PM (#19079628)
Agreed that it does not necessarily mean less secure ... see my comment below
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by sametmax on Monday February 04, 2019 @03:04PM (#19080096)
The french equivalent of the IRS did open up their software: https://github.com/GouvernementFR/calculette-impots-m-source...

Everybody got very enthousiastic at the begining, then realized:

- it was written in a niche proprietary language: M

- it was provided with almost zero doc or comments

- the process of getting the code was tedious, and the law changes every year

- taxes are complicated

And so nobody did anything with it ever since.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by Sniffnoy on Monday February 04, 2019 @06:01PM (#19081552)
Huh, usually I've seen "M" used to refer to MUMPS. But this appears to be something else -- I guess something proprietary, like you said. I have to wonder where one would look it up, as I imagine searching for information on the M programming language would mostly turn up information about MUMPS...
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by dragonwriter on Monday February 04, 2019 @06:03PM (#19081570)
> Huh, usually I've seen "M" used to refer to MUMPS

M is also the name of the built in language in Microsoft Power Query.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by natechols on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:44PM (#19079908)
Or at the very least our entire national tax code should be downloadable in machine-readable form.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by analog31 on Monday February 04, 2019 @03:35PM (#19080369)
It should just be a giant function:

    def foo(**kwargs):
        <insert code here>
        return how_much_you_owe
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by m0zg on Monday February 04, 2019 @04:13PM (#19080690)
It really should be a provably unambiguous ruleset that would take in the person's circumstances and numbers and spit out a number, yes. I understand that your post is a joke, but that'd be an _awesome_ thing to have for everyone, especially if coupled with some adversarial tech to find and close loopholes. Which is, ironically, why this isn't going to happen.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by natechols on Monday February 04, 2019 @04:42PM (#19080911)
I've always assumed that Intuit lobbying alone will be sufficient to kill this idea.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by m0zg on Monday February 04, 2019 @04:47PM (#19080951)
I think Intuit is just a scapegoat in this case. Incomprehensible tax code is a rich environment for corruption.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by natechols on Monday February 04, 2019 @05:21PM (#19081220)
Totally true, but I've certainly seen claims that Intuit actually lobbies against simplifying the tax code.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by logfromblammo on Monday February 04, 2019 @04:59PM (#19081055)
This might work:

  x = gross_income / median_income;
  if( x <= 1 )
  {
    return 0;
  }
  if( x <= 50 )
  {
    y = ( x * Math.ln( x ) - x + 1 ) / Math.ln( 2500 );
  }
  else
  {
    y = x - 0.5 * Math.ln( 50 ) * Math.li( x ) + 4.862;
  }
  return y * median_income;
Math.ln() is the log function for base e, and Math.li() is the logarithmic integral function.

The constants are based on the income at 50 times the median income having a marginal tax rate of 50%, and the median income having a marginal tax rate of 0%. Marginal tax rates above 50% asymptotically approach 100%. There are no loopholes or exemptions.

If the median income is $32k, and you earned $31k, your tax is zero. Your only obligation is to report your gross income honestly, so that the median income is calculated accurately for next year. If your income is $96k, your x = 3.0, your y = 0.1656, so your tax is $15.9k . If your income is $1.6M, your x = 50, your y = 18.74, so your tax is $600k . If your income is $32M, your x = 1000, your y = 657.5, and your tax = $21M.

The only effective ways to reduce your tax would be to reduce your income (as reported) or raise the nationwide median income, such as by paying your lowest-paid workers more in the previous year.

Seems fair to me.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by Zanni on Monday February 04, 2019 @06:15PM (#19081642)
You're solving the wrong problem. Calculating tax owed is the easy part. Figuring out your income is the challenge: tracking all your business expenses, depreciation, credits, exemptions, etc.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by logfromblammo on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @10:28AM (#19086109)
Deduct the labor cost of salary and wages only, and the distributions to the owners. Those are someone else's income. If it isn't someone else's income, for them to pay tax on, you pay tax on it. No loopholes or exemptions, period. The only way for a dollar to not be your income is if you gave it to someone else, to be their income.

If you add up all the incomes of all the tax-paying entities, it should equal the money supply multiplied by the velocity, minus the unreported income economy.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by m0zg on Monday February 04, 2019 @05:45PM (#19081422)
There's one fly in this socialist ointment: all the rich people will immediately bail, and go live elsewhere.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by logfromblammo on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @10:21AM (#19086040)
Ah. Well, that's fine. They can go somewhere else and renounce citizenship, then huff and puff when they start having difficulties getting the money out of the businesses and property they left behind, and getting the knobbly, nail-studded end of the mercantilists' stick.

Your argument rests on the presumption that the economy needs super-rich people to be performant, when corporations and governments have already solved the problem of collaborative concentration of capital. If they leave, and the economy somehow fails to collapse, they have shown the lie behind rich folks as "job creators".

Economies are run by the people who do the work. Sitting on ass and writing checks serves to weed out some of the worst ideas, and shuffling financial instruments serves to lubricate the gears of the economic machine, but should the rich ever go on strike, they will immediately lose all their leverage as the economy restructures itself to work without them. At worst, they can just get replaced by newly-minted rich people.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by m0zg on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @03:05PM (#19089227)
That's how you get Venezuela though. Good luck with that.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by logfromblammo on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @05:49PM (#19090832)
You get Venezuela with bad government. And they bought theirs with state-owned (nationalized in 1976) petroleum money, not with progressive income taxes. Progressive taxation is how you get Europe. Occasionally, someone like Gerard Depardieu flees the top tax rate in France, the world's top taxer, but it still manages to be a G7 economy, somehow.

And, contrariwise, when a nation coddles its billionaires, and lets them do whatever they want, that's how you get the current US government. Nobody's starving, though. Not yet. We still might check that off with another government shutdown and another trade war escalation and another diplomatic insult or provocation.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by m0zg on Tuesday February 05, 2019 @06:16PM (#19091084)
You get Venezuela by committing to give people somebody else's money rather than create the environment in which they can make their own.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by logfromblammo on Wednesday February 06, 2019 @11:30AM (#19096534)
Venezuela has complex cause. You aren't doing anyone any favors by simplistically reducing it to your favorite contributing factor, nor are you arguing honestly when you conflate progressive income taxation with socialism, or in this specific instance, Chavismo--which is rooted in socialism, with a lot of extra features, including populism.

Committing to give people someone else's money is every government expenditure that is paid for by taxation. It's the welfare state. It's the military-industrial complex. It's infrastructure projects. It's corruption. It's operating funds for regulatory agencies. It's foreign adventurism. Everything. Most governments have budgets that are funded entirely by "somebody else's money". You have made several unspoken assumptions in this discussion, and I think it may be best for you to make them explicit before continuing.

People aren't leaving Venezuela because taxes are high. And Venezuela's problems aren't a result of rich folks fleeing to Miami and Madrid. They are all leaving--the non-government rich, the middle-class, and the poor--because price-fixing creates shortages, and there is no such thing as a free lunch. If one pays for the party with oil money, one also has to turn off the music when the international commodity price for Venezuelan crude oil goes down. But they didn't turn it off; they turned it up.

Can you provide any details on Venezuela's progressive income tax? All I could find was a flat 34% tax on income for nonresidents, and that the lowest rate for residents might be 6%. Which Venezuelans left specifically because they didn't want to pay 34%?

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by c22 on Monday February 04, 2019 @06:33PM (#19081753)
It shouldn't matter where they live if they're still making their money here. And if they're not making any money then they're not paying taxes under this scheme anyway.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by MadWombat on Monday February 04, 2019 @05:35PM (#19081338)
> provably unambiguous ruleset

I think that statement is against the very idea of tax law :)

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by PurpleBoxDragon on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:05PM (#19079520)
By hiding the code, it makes security through obscurity far more possible. If you force the code to be public, very poor security will be discovered far faster and be more of an issue to the public.

While this will also make abusing security flaws easier, I think there is also a real benefit to forcing it to be public that could potentially outweigh the risks of doing such.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by zbruhnke on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:14PM (#19079619)
I agree with this in principle (in fact I had a long argument with the former CTO of Citi about this during the heartbleed fiasco) but I also worry that if noone is willing to put in the effort to fix flaws or they are not reported properly then fixing them could go un-funded while flaws were easier to discover.

Maybe the answer is very good logging of anyone who has cloned the repos etc. but right now when we have a government that uses whether or not they're going to fund important parts of our infrastructure (like Air Traffic Controllers) as a bargaining chip I have some skepticism around them being willing to fund ongoing maintenance of some of these products.

Despite the fact that things being in the open SHOULD curb this from happening I've read enough legislation (yes, I actually do like to read legislation) to know that that probably is not true when it comes to the government

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by rhacker on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:55PM (#19080011)
An alternative would be to rebuild these from scratch, not using any existing code, but start (and always continue) in the open.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by maxxxxx on Monday February 04, 2019 @03:48PM (#19080469)
I am always told that if security is done right you can release the code. Makes sense to me. If you don’t release code it’s much more tempting to do some quick hacks that rely on not releasing the code but aren’t really secure.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by tracker1 on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:02PM (#19079484)
Agreed, safety and essential infrastructure should probably not be open source. That said, the main points of infrastructure access and configuration are probably larger issues at hand over the actual systems source itself.

As to TFA, I have mixed feelings. I'm actually more concerned about research and related patents and data surrounding publicly funded study. I do feel that Open-Source should be given some level of preference, but not that all publicly funded software should be open source itself. It's a blurry line imho.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by jacquesm on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:27PM (#19079760)
Disagreed, safety and essential infrastructure should definitely be open source. Right now your typical infrastructure project is about as leaky as they come compared to a typical web app. Exposing that stuff to broad daylight will certainly help to harden it.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by zbruhnke on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:49PM (#19079946)
I wish I had as much faith in the government as you ... then again as a resident of the netherlands I suppose you might have reason to have more faith than I do in the US?

In principle I completely agree that things being in the open should help to harden them, but especially in the US where funding is often used as a bargaining chip and bureaucracy is rampant I get a bit nervous

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by jacquesm on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:54PM (#19080008)
Then you're essentially ceding the ground to the bad guys.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by tracker1 on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:51PM (#19079967)
And how much of that is already using open-source and it's the configuration that's leaky, and not the software itself?

How many poorly maintained/updated/configured Linux hosts are out there? Same for Windows, etc... in the end, the software can be the greatest, but if the host's configuration is poorly setup/managed, what does it matter.

Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by briandear on Monday February 04, 2019 @03:50PM (#19080491)
Except how long does it take to fix a vulnerability in government? If an exploit is discovered, consequences are immediate and the patch to fix it might not be.
Re:If Software Is Funded from a Public Source, Its Code Shou... by container on Monday February 04, 2019 @02:06PM (#19079530)
Could you be more specific about what you can imagine? People looking at the code and finding exploits that way?