News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:19PM (#19022845)
It won't be, because different groups answer questions differently. One famous result (http://web.pdx.edu/~mev/pdf/PS471_Readings_2012/Lizotte_Sidm...) is that woman hold themselves to a higher threshold of certainty before claiming to know something.

An interesting solution would be to score differently based on known biases; but that would be a can of worms in itself.

Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by deathanatos on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:04PM (#19023049)
> It won't be, because different groups answer questions differently.

And the common currently practices don't control for that any better. The parent's idea (blind or double-blind screening of candidates) seems like it would, to me, be inherently better if we can figure out how to deal with the logistical complexities it adds. (E.g., how does on-site work? Are there on-sites?) If anything, it would be interesting to weigh against current practices of a few phones screens and a on-site.

(It doesn't seem worse that the world I'm living in, where I'm at the bottom rung doing my damndest to make sure I'm not part of the problem by treating people equally, while at the same time I see some employers offering hiring bonuses for "diversity hires".)

The query in the paper allows the candidate to say "they don't know"; if you force their hand in answering by removing that option, they should be again on equal footing, no?

Additionally, I've also read about mathematical means of recording uncertainty in answers and weighting score with that. (That is, correct answer to which you were more certain net more points, incorrect answers to which you were uncertain lose less points than incorrect answers to which you were more certain.) The end result you're trying to get at is which person is giving better answers and certainties.

> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged.

Sure, people can twist things into something they're not, but that doesn't inherently make the original thing wrong or evil.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by elmepo on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @12:47AM (#19024072)
The issue is that developing a Meritocracy requires that you first solve bigotry. It's arguably fine in theory, but it presupposes what is (at least in my mind) impossible.

It's literally where we get the name "Meritocracy" from. The book "The rise of the Meritocracy" was a satire, not a manual.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @07:02PM (#19031210)
> I'm not part of the problem by treating people equally,

If you (think) treat people equally, you are part of the problem. When one group is more vocal than the other, you have to amplify the other group. If not, you're just keeping the current bias in place.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ericb on Monday January 28, 2019 @10:37PM (#19023522)
> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged.

I don't understand this point of view. It sounds like, by calling it a lie, your real complaint is the ways attempts at meritocracy have fallen short of being an actual meritocracy. That being the case, isn't meritocracy still the correct ideal that we should be doing a better job of striving for?

If this is not how you feel, what is the word for the appropriate assignment strategy that we should be strive to use to decide who gets jobs and promotions?

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by hn_throwaway_99 on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:54PM (#19023880)
> That being the case, isn't meritocracy still the correct ideal that we should be doing a better job of striving for?

I would actually say no, at least when it comes to when arguments for a meritocracy are used as arguments against redistribution of wealth from the more "meritocratic" to the less.

Consider, as a thought experiment, if instead of features like intelligence, communication skills, self-confidence, etc., that our economic system instead only valued basketball skills as the means for distributing wealth. That system would be a meritocracy: great basketball players with tons of talent and effort would be really wealthy and successful, while talentless or lazy basketball players would be poor.

I think this is a good thought experiment because of some of the things it highlights. Perhaps most importantly, all short people are pretty much destined to be forever poor in this meritocratic system. If you are short, what value would you see in abiding by this system at all if tall, great basketball players took all the gains? What about if instead great basketball players could be wealthy and successful, but they still had to pay a very large amount of taxes to ensure that short people didn't starve (or revolt).

While a (true) meritocracy may be ideal for how jobs are to be distributed, if it is also how wealth is distributed it means that it is also, by and large, a lottery of DNA. How is that any more "fair" than an aristocracy?

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ericb on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @08:25AM (#19026053)
I'm not sure that "fairness" is exactly the right ideal if our goal is the most health and wealth for the most people? I want my doctor to be really great--to be in that job because he is the best at it. I don't want someone placed there by a truly random lottery, and I do want the guy who won the intelligence DNA drawing to be the one I talk to. I also want wealth to motivate people to get into that job, as it is so tough to gain that knowledge, I don't know if there will be enough people without a financial reward.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:56PM (#19031168)
Fairness in opportunities, which you just disqualified by assuming the best Dr need to be a MALE and GENTICALY PREDETERMINED SMART.

My (short) experience working in health care suggest both are very bad qualifications for a health professional.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ericb on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @09:15PM (#19032013)
So, first off, fair point for calling out that I said "guy." I tried to edit it once I saw my mistake, but the post was locked.

I'm curious, though, why you would not want someone who was genetically smart? Why would you want a "dumb" healthcare professional treating you? Do you not believe intelligence to be related to genetics?

Also, how does being male make one a worse healthcare professional?

If you are saying you want fairness in opportunities, then isn't discriminating on the basis of someone being male the opposite of fairness?

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by burfog on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @02:55AM (#19033430)
To be coldly rational, you want to pick from the group that is the most discriminated against for entry into medical school. Right now in the USA, that would be Asian males.

An exception is if you may need the doctor to insert a hand into your body. In this case, note that Asian female doctors generally have the smallest hands.

An exception is if you are very heavy and might require feats of strength for your care. In this case, young non-Asian males are most likely to have the needed strength.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by thefringthing on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @10:25AM (#19035758)
It's pretty telling then you went for male pronouns to describe your hypothetical doctor.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ericb on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @04:39PM (#19147812)
Maybe? My primary care doctor is female, so whatever bias using a gendered pronoun might show, at the end of the day, I picked who I thought was best. On merit.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by krageon on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @03:01AM (#19024610)
This argument for meritocracy is what a real communist will tell you about communism now. It works basically for anything that we don't have good working examples for right this second. Given that there are no good working examples and/or haven't been any so far, how would we fix the problems that we have seen and can foresee?

Given those concerns, I think it is not reasonable to just say "we need to try again and try harder" because it does a disservice to those times it was tried in the past. Maybe there is a fundamental problem there that still has to be solved?

For a meritocracy, this isn't super complicated. Who decides what has merit? How will you measure this? Are the things that you measure the right things? Given that there is a possibility for side-channel information (for example, certain groups of people having terms they "look for" and that you only know about being part of this group), how will we solve this?

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by danieltillett on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @04:05AM (#19024890)
I feel like misquoting Churchill here and saying meritocracy is the the worst system except for all the alternatives.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @06:58PM (#19031180)
You'd also be doing injustice to his saying. A (liberal) democracy gives every one the same opportunity. This isn't the case with so called meritocracy.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by danieltillett on Thursday January 31, 2019 @04:16AM (#19043530)
Well isn't giving everyone the same opportunity the definintion of a meritocracy? Of course no society is a meritocracy, but it is hard to think of a better system.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Friday February 01, 2019 @06:32PM (#19059817)
No; Meritocracy is judging by the results. If we're both in a dancing competition, but you have dance shoes and I wear a workman's steel toed both, giving you the win is meritocratic, even though the opportunity isn't equal.

If you judging system by it's ideal implementation, then you should argue for Communism (we all know how that turns out, and to what a douchy sausage fest so called "meritocracies" ends as)

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ericb on Tuesday February 12, 2019 @04:48PM (#19147904)
> Meritocracy is judging by the results.

Say you need brain surgery. Are you telling me you will choose based on some criteria other than results?

I will pick a 9 headed purple alien if it will do the best job. And I won't care that it had the advantage of 7 parents who were rich doctors and harvard alumni. The place to fix inequality is upstream.

The cure for those advantages is to level the playing field.

> If you judging system by it's ideal implementation, then you should argue for Communism

Straw man. Like visiting a junkyard and concluding all cars don't move. That line of reasoning lets you conclude anything with a failed example can never work.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by normal_man on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @10:53AM (#19027299)
It is not possible to have an "actual" meritocracy. There's simply no way to account for all personal biases and all the historical context that you'd need to to get a truly "objective" decision made.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by Gibbon1 on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:42PM (#19023264)
> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world.

I remember an essay by a black female engineer. She said what helped her were three things, her dad had a union job, disability payments from the uncle who came home from Korea with no legs. These meant they could fake a middle class lifestyle. And her mother teaching her how to dress and talk like a white person.

Seriously a lot of 'Meritocracy' is nothing more than soft affinity fraud.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by ValleyOfTheMtns on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:10PM (#19023692)
Seems like that's conflating actual meritocracy with an exploited/fake form of meritocracy.

Actual meritocracies are rare, but that doesn't mean we should redefine "meritocracy" to be the the distorted (and more common) version of it.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by AstralStorm on Tuesday January 29, 2019 @04:36AM (#19025036)
Please provide an example of an actual meritocracy so we can educate you that it does not exist.
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by snotrockets on Wednesday January 30, 2019 @08:05PM (#19041304)
Just like every example of a communist regime wasn't true communist, and hence failed!
Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by burtonator on Monday January 28, 2019 @08:41PM (#19022951)
> Meritocracy is a lie used by the privileged. There is no such thing in the real world.

That's absolutely untrue.. you really discredit yourself when you say provably false things like this.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by RobLach on Monday January 28, 2019 @09:22PM (#19023138)
I assume you’ve read the essay the term comes from

https://www.worldcat.org/title/rise-of-the-meritocracy/oclc/...

If not; it’s pretty fun.

Re:64 and unemployed: One man's struggle to be taken serious... by zorpner on Monday January 28, 2019 @11:49PM (#19023861)
...you really discredit yourself when you say provably false things like this.

Likewise. And look, I've offered just as much proof as you did.