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Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by p1necone on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:50PM (#18899226)
Let me get this straight, you think caring about human rights is a partisan thing? I guess it is in the United States currently...
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by laretluval on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:11PM (#18899331)
Human rights is ill-defined, certainly less well-defined than anonymity. Saying the project serves human rights effectively means the project serves whoever gets to define what is a human right.
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by jachee on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:22PM (#18899390)
Human Rights are very clearly, and universally defined[0]. They're things that every human deserves. There's not really any room for debate about that.

[0] http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/inde...

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by jlawson on Sunday January 13, 2019 @07:21PM (#18899627)
What rights people have and how those should be applied to real-life situations is a massive ongoing question. Does a woman have a right to an abortion? Does an unborn baby have the right not to be killed? Does a responsible adult have the right to be armed? What about with a pistol or an automatic weapon? Do religious people have the right not to have their beliefs disparaged? What about Christians vs "piss christ"? What about Muslims versus Mohammed cartoons? What about micro-religions of 100 people? Or Scientology?? Do people have the right to free speech? Does the right to free speech mean only the goverment can't persecute you directly, or does it include a situation where a cartel of infrastructure companies (credit cards, website hosts) decide to do everything to remove you from the Internet? Do people have the right to health care, and how do we square that when resources are scarce? Does it mean doctors are slaves?

The UNHRD is nothing like universally accepted. For example, Muslim countries considered that it violates their idea of what human rights are, so they made their own Islam-friendly human rights declaration [0]. That's like 1/4 of the world population rejecting your universal human rights at the outset.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_on_Human_Rig...

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by lugg on Sunday January 13, 2019 @11:48PM (#18900743)
> What rights people have and how those should be applied to real-life situations is a massive ongoing question.

That's a feature.

We don't have a single entity that can prescribe and dictate specific rulings in specific scenarios under the diverse range of city, state, and nation laws the world contains.

Acting like the UDHR was ever meant to be something so specific is asinine.

"The Declaration was the first step in the process of formulating the International Bill of Human Rights, which was completed in 1966, and came into force in 1976, after a sufficient number of countries had ratified them."

> The UNHRD is nothing like universally accepted.

Except by most states the world over it is and has been for decades.

"Some legal scholars have argued that because countries have constantly invoked the Declaration for more than 50 years, it has become binding as a part of customary international law."

> For example, Muslim countries considered that it violates their idea of what human rights are, so they made their own Islam-friendly human rights declaration [0]. That's like 1/4 of the world population rejecting your universal human rights at the outset.

Except they didn't reject the UDHR at the outset. Nobody did, not one member of the UN voted against.

"Of the then 58 members of the United Nations, 48 voted in favor, none against, eight abstained, and two did not vote."

Furthermore, The CDHR came what 14? years later? Likely after the radicalization of islam that took place during that period. I mean hell, back in the 60s/70s muslim women were wearing miniskirts.

In fact, the simple fact that the CDHR exists tells me that,

a) the UDHR is working as intended as it allows its existence, and b) the UDHR got things mostly right if a religous entity feels the need to disavow it and make their own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human...

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by posterboy on Monday January 14, 2019 @12:59AM (#18900996)
> "Some legal scholars have argued that ...

A paragraph later in the wiki-article you copied from, this is opinion is immediately refuted. Instead the buck stops at constitutions and the like.

It's a declaration of interests. It is heavily stressing the word law, which is very much not an inherent value, that the term competing interests should be hard to shrug off. I am not going to write a fully fledged critique in a HN comment about this monumental document, but it's always going to be a two edged sword.

For one funny bit see this paragraph:

> Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Which is asymmetric, not to say utterly useless, without provision about where to leave to. I forgot what GP's point was :(

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by lugg on Monday January 14, 2019 @06:10PM (#18907451)
How is that utterly useless? It's pretty clear the intention is to prevent a) people being prevented from leaving enmasse and b) revoking their passport.

This is basic stuff and doesn't work in a vacuum you can safely assume we live on the same planet that happens to have mostly open borders.

Regarding the customary international law thing it was not refuted at all. It says that it does not constitute international law for the USA, and does not constitute domestic law for some [citation needed] other countries - likely because of the vague at times wording.

The fact some nations dispute it doesn't make it any less customary international law, hell it's kind of the definition otherwise it would just be international law.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customary_international_law

Customary is just that, it doesn't have to be upheld but it can be used as a moral guide to defining and shaping other laws.

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by laretluval on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:29PM (#18899416)
Seems pretty subjective to me.

For example, "This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by DyslexicAtheist on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:19PM (#18899082)
don't mind me asking. Are you saying that tor is mainly developed / advocated by left leaning groups? Isn't it a tool that can and should be used by all camps, regardless of ideology. e.g. everyone has a right to anonymity or not? Not trolling you or trying to be cheeky, just trying to understand your reasoning better. thx
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by yzb on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:41PM (#18899180)
It indeed is a tool that can be used by all camps, but the organisation that controls it has made it clear that only people in the "libertarian" part of the political spectrum can use it.
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by jstanley on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:45PM (#18899202)
How exactly have they made that clear?

I thought it was pretty clear that Tor is for everyone.

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by BLKNSLVR on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:14PM (#18899844)
You contradict yourself in very few words:

can be used by all camps

and

only people in the "libertarian" part of the political spectrum can use it

Additionally, the organisation that controls it don't control the content or who can use it. They continue to improve it and maintain it for the purposes of maximizing anonymity and preventing the type of 'control' that you seem to think they're capable of.

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by Latteland on Sunday January 13, 2019 @08:50PM (#18900008)
That's just silly, I can't see any evidence for that. What causes you to believe this?
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by LMYahooTFY on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:03PM (#18899281)
Please link and explain this.

When has the Tor Project ever excluded anyone based on ideology?

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by laretluval on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:09PM (#18899312)
EDIT: Correction, I was misinformed. Daily Stormer was not outed from Tor: https://www.fastcompany.com/40455652/the-tor-project-wont-ce...
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by ryanlol on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:10PM (#18899326)
This is a lie.
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by techntoke on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:15PM (#18899061)
How exactly does that cater to only one side of the political spectrum?
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by crumbshot on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:21PM (#18899088)
It sounds like they're complaining about this blog post, where the Tor project disavows use of their software by neo-Nazis, child pornographers, and other assorted deplorable people: https://blog.torproject.org/tor-project-defends-human-rights...
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by barbecue_sauce on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:39PM (#18899172)
So instead of "one side of the political spectrum" more like, "a few standard deviations away from the center of the political spectrum".
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by metildaa on Sunday January 13, 2019 @05:48PM (#18899212)
Three standard deviations from center leaves you with just the 0.15% on either end.

If Tor is to remain as an acceptable thing to run and use, the Tor Project can't outwardly espouse ideology that drives away the normal users that allow Tor users to blend together. Those browsing Tumblr over Tor, shitposting on Reddit, watching YouTube, etc are key to retain so as to normalize the use of the Tor Browser Bundle.

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by jstanley on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:17PM (#18899359)
They're disavowing 0.15% of users.

And even so, note that that is not the same as blocking 0.15% of users, which is impossible.

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by nabla9 on Sunday January 13, 2019 @06:10PM (#18899321)
Since when libertarianism and human rights have been on the opposite sides?
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by lsc on Sunday January 13, 2019 @10:53PM (#18900504)
> Since when libertarianism and human rights have been on the opposite sides?

I dunno about opposite, but certainly in opposition on certain points: http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/inde...

"Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control. (2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection."

Obviously, this means taking from those who have to give to those who have not, which is pretty strongly opposed by the right-libertarians.

a bunch of the others also conflict with right-libertarian principles; like article 24 limits working hours and says I should get some paid vacation and 26 says elementary education should be free (and compulsory)

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by AnaniasAnanas on Sunday January 13, 2019 @11:26PM (#18900639)
I think that nabla9 by "human rights" refers to human rights as a universal concept (and probably under their own accepted definition) rather than the specific definition by the UN.
Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by lsc on Sunday January 13, 2019 @11:36PM (#18900682)
I don't think that changes my point? A lot of people consider something like article 25; some right to minimal food, shelter and medical care to be part of human rights.

Right-libertarians generally don't believe that you have a right to any of those things if nobody else wants to give those things to you.

Generally this is talked about as the conflict between positive vs negative rights, or human rights vs property rights.

I mean, you could come up with some version of "human rights" that doesn't include the right to food, shelter and medical care... but you could also come up with a definition of libertarianisim that includes some form of welfare for everyone. I personally know several people who identify as libertarians who also support universal basic income...

I'm just saying, that's not how those words are usually used. Usually 'human rights' includes some kind of positive rights, and usually 'libertarian' means 'primarily focuses on property rights'

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by romanpoet on Monday January 14, 2019 @12:06AM (#18900802)
I left Tor Project after seven years for the same reason (the pivot from "internet privacy" to "human rights watch for nerds" where internet privacy is a means to an end). At Tor Project, the adults are no longer guiding the ship.

https://medium.com/@virgilgr/tors-branding-pivot-is-going-to...

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by jancsika on Monday January 14, 2019 @12:39AM (#18900928)
It appears nobody who responded to you actually read the content behind your link. All the responses to you and the OP are merely low effort proclamations of exasperation unrelated to your argument.

As I understand your argument you were saying that Tor's rebranding-- emphasizing human rights advocacy-- could ironically make it more difficult to operate nodes in countries that have a poor track record on human rights. You gave some examples of Asian countries which took firm stances against corruption, for example, but which also took stances against western ideals of human rights. The implication being countries which might allow Tor to enhance whistleblowing capabilities might reject Tor if it is closely associated with human rights activities.

That said, your article is 2+ years old so there should be substantial data on your claim by now. What does it show? Has Tor usage diminished measurably in those countries due to their rebranding, or not?

Re:Strength in Numbers: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor by romanpoet on Monday January 14, 2019 @01:37AM (#18901119)
There's still a few nodes remaining in Asia.

https://tormap.void.gr/

As a point of comparison, look at the nodes for Ethereum, which, IMHO, is a even more disruptive idea than Tor.

https://team.carto.com/builder/e70677d5-1111-40a8-9e19-f27da...

Ethereum is a much younger project than Tor, and explicitly eschews the human-rights / internet-freedom branding, even though it will obviously be incredibly useful for those purposes.