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Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by mrdoops on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:02AM (#18862407)
The Gig Economy hasn't even started yet. We've yet to solve Identity (Who is this?) and Merit (Is this person qualified/competent?). Hell, we've only barely started decentralized finance let alone scalable-decentralized-organizations. Uber/Lyft/Taskrabbit/Fiverr are low-hanging fruit compared to the complex workflows most services entail.

I expect we're going to see more niche gig-economy businesses being built around more complex workflows with higher skilled labor. Lots of B2B and B2C potential when you break up services into smaller tasks that can be fulfilled. Success is providing the benefits of scale without the challenge of doing it yourself.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by petra on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:00AM (#18862656)
Hooray!

Now we'll have to have a 5-star rating to get a temp job, one that probably won't pay well.

Ah an it will be all be tied to your identity. Forever. That's awesome !

And who will rate us ? Our temporary boss. Hooray for the power dynamics !

Great!

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by dazc on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:43AM (#18862802)
Don't forget to give your boss a 5-star rating at the end of your gig, nobody is going to employ you otherwise.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by thatoneuser on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @02:22AM (#18862943)
God black mirror is too real...
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by groestl on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:32AM (#18863236)
There go your Hackernews Meowmeowbeenz. Meta enough to be totally worth it, though.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by mrdoops on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @11:53AM (#18866278)
That's the issue. How do you solve merit without an Orwellian system monitoring everything everyone does? Without some kind of capability for privacy-respecting decentralized systems - solving for Merit is a function of dystopia.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by petra on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @12:22PM (#18866590)
Why solve for merit ? why optimize everything ?

What's wrong in a simple world where most people can be just mediocre and hold a stable job ?

Unless we're talking about "high risk" jobs, why make life harder than it already is ? for what ?

Why not aim there, collectively ?

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by koboll on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:07AM (#18864738)
> We've yet to solve Identity (Who is this?) and Merit (Is this person qualified/competent?).

Thank god that back when I was babysitting for extra cash, there wasn't some faceless, soulless automated system judging my Identity and Merit.

What is it about technology that induces people to zoom straight toward dystopia? The gig economy has always been there; just because we now have the technology to turn it into an Orwellian hellscape doesn't mean there are suddenly safety concerns that demand we do so.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by pjc50 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:53AM (#18863587)
If only people would put down Mieses and pick up Ronald Coase.

The "gig economy" relies on the jobs being simple and atomised. It relies on the quality being easy to collapse into a single number, and no tacit knowledge or ongoing relationship involved in the production. Managers keep assuming that these kind of internal transaction costs are unimportant, and that's how you get outsourcing disasters.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by notahacker on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:11AM (#18863874)
This is of course a major reason why looking at sharp growth and thinking it might be an accelerating trend doesn't always work.

"Gig economy" startups pick at the low hanging fruit first. Taxi drivers who are already hired by the journey are much more easily "decentralised" than people who are supposed to be the face of their company or undertake jobs with learning curves. There's plenty of scope for online services to improve the hiring of the latter, but it's still going to entail longer term contracts and often more regular working hours, and often better comparative performance metrics than a skewed star rating system.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by danmaz74 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:03AM (#18863379)
Uber and similar companies are nothing about decentralisation - on the contrary, they are centralising. One mega company which serves tens of countries where before you had hundreds of small taxi operators. Their value lies mostly in this centralisation.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by TeMPOraL on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:22AM (#18863453)
Yup.

I always found the narration of Uber the Underdog going against the Evil Taxi Mafia to be funny. In reality, the only mafia-like player in this story is Uber - the multinational corporation that fights against multitude of small local players.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by ratman on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @07:10AM (#18864132)
Except in the real reality there are a lot of Taxi companies run buy real organized crime for the purpose of laundering money...

But yeah, I guess both your narrative and the one you counter are equally detached from the real reality

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by dsfyu404ed on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @08:21AM (#18864474)
>Except in the real reality there are a lot of Taxi companies run buy real organized crime for the purpose of laundering money...

So? The fact that the business might by people using it as a front for money laundering is immaterial because it does not affect how they do business, how they treat customers or how they treat employees. Letting your money laundering workflow impact your business is how you get caught laundering money.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by humanbeinc on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @03:34AM (#18863245)
As someone working in this industry on the "employer"-side: Yes, I believe this is exactly whats going to happen. It's a real business pain that we don't have these kind of informations about gig workers and would pay top dollars to have them... it's only a matter of time until this becomes standard practice in these business modells... just like credit rating agencies we're gonna see it on a work-level too.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by inertiatic on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:16AM (#18863433)
Here's a novel idea. Instead of paying top dollar for "these kind of informations about gig workers", pay top dollar for employees.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by mschuster91 on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @04:36AM (#18863523)
> It's a real business pain that we don't have these kind of informations about gig workers and would pay top dollars to have them...

Why not permanently employ them? Should be cheaper in the long run.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by logifail on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @05:12AM (#18863656)
>> Why not permanently employ them?

I have a friend who owns a small family business in France. He's doing well. He would have enough work to take on extra staff, except that he claims the local worker protection legislation mean that it's not worth it, particularly since he wouldn't be able to get rid of anyone if he hasn't got the work for them.

So, he'd rather work himself and family members extra hard, than employ anyone new.

>> Should be cheaper in the long run.

Except if the politicians in charge make sure it's not. See above.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by gjulianm on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @05:39AM (#18863743)
IIRC, the compensation for firing someone is 0.25 months of salary per worked year (first ten years, after that it's 0.33 months). It's not that much, and if he has enough work to take on extra staff he probably could put away that money in the case of a firing. If the company is going down because of end-of-contract compensations, the company would be going down anyways. Also, temporary contracts exist if he just wants extra help during specific times, and those do not have any compensation at the end of the contract.

In other words, the compensation for end-of-contract is just 2% of the salary of the worker per month. If the benefits of having a worker is more than 2% of their salary, it's worth it.

But to avoid deviating from the topic: the gig economy is not about small family businesses. Gig economy is a buzzword used by companies that could pay decent salaries and worker protections but are too dominated by greed to do it.

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by barry-cotter on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @05:55AM (#18863817)
You neglect the cost of lawyers when he’s sued and the cost of spending time talking with his lawyer about something that won’t make any money while he’s being sued. I presume French businesspeople aren’t fools and their extreme reluctance to hire is rational. If you see total idiocy everywhere sometimes you’re right but mostly there’s something you don’t know that explains the behaviour.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by michaelt on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @09:21AM (#18864828)

  I presume French businesspeople aren’t fools and
  their extreme reluctance to hire is rational.
Well, hiring your first employee is a special case.

You gotta learn what legislation applies to you now and start following it. Gotta pay people regularly, instead of when it's convenient for you. Gotta have policies for things like expenses and sick leave and holiday and car use and overtime and bribery and dress code. Gotta apply the policies consistently and fairly. Gotta get them work space and equipment and maybe parking. Maybe you need to provide training. Gotta to figure out how to put job ads into the newspaper or whatever your industry is doing these days. Gotta decide what sort of interview questions you're going to ask...

Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by gjulianm on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:54AM (#18864048)
The cost of lawyers he's sued is the same no matter the legislation. I assume that different laws give different ways to sue, but I don't think that cost depends that much on the cost of firing someone. If the employer does everything according to the norm (e.g., if the workload diminishes and he cannot take on the employee anymore, he needs to have the numbers that prove that) nothing should go badly.
Re:How Estimates of the Gig Economy Went Wrong by mrweasel on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @06:58AM (#18864070)
Isn't that complaint, valid as it is, a separate issue? Also it's rather localized, to France (and possibly a few other countries).

I can be fired with one month warning, and I have the same one month notice if I want to quit. That seems fair for both parties.