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Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by jm4 on Saturday January 05, 2019 @08:38PM (#18835762)
You think people are homeless because there is not enough housing available in the city? How many homes do you think you could build on the same plot of land as a basketball arena? Several hundred? Maybe a thousand condos? That’s like spitting in the ocean. And then what? Give them away to the homeless? It’s not like they’re going to pay for them just because you made a few more available.

Housing is expensive in big cities because there are jobs, amenities and entertainment for a diverse group of people. That entertainment includes sports.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by titanomachy on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:38PM (#18836124)
There are people who are on the margin of being able to afford a rental. Increase in supply could slightly lower prices and allow those people to afford to rent a home.

You're right of course that the poorest people would still be unable to afford homes. Building more homes would reduce homelessness but not eliminate it.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by jm4 on Saturday January 05, 2019 @10:18PM (#18836340)
Someone on the margin of affording a rental in SF isn’t homeless. They live someplace else that costs less. Why should taxpayers foot the bill to build more homes with the goal of making SF marginally more affordable when there are plenty of other good places to live? How is that better than some dumb stadium idea? And how long does it keep housing costs down? Those new homes will be gobbled up immediately and then the available inventory on the resale market will be back to about the same level as before.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by the_cat_kittles on Saturday January 05, 2019 @11:33PM (#18836591)
seems like vienna is a pretty good example of how you are wrong: https://crosscut.com/2017/06/homelessness-housing-crisis-sea...
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by notSupplied on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:11PM (#18842474)
Because the the best jobs are in SF, so scratching SF off of your list if you're in particular industries is too large of a sacrifice.

The problem with NIMBYism isn't saying no to building more homes per se, it is saying no to more homes while saying yes to more jobs and more commerce that creates the problem.

Someone who works in SF, but lives 40 minutes away due to cost, should be considered a constituent of SF and their voice is as valid as that of a resident.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by titanomachy on Sunday January 06, 2019 @11:00PM (#18842667)
Yeah the city certainly benefits from their presence even if they don't pay property tax. NIMBYs are happy to profit off this as their property values soar, but they don't want to pay any of the cost.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by masonic on Monday January 07, 2019 @09:01PM (#18852408)

  while saying yes to more jobs
How do local residents have any say in local job offerings?
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by notSupplied on Wednesday January 09, 2019 @01:31AM (#18862764)
By fighting high density projects that are residential ("It brings too much traffic! It'll shade this nearby park!") but not when they're for commercial use. See recent SOMA mixed use construction in SF. Office to residential square footage ratio is completely skewed towards offices.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by alasdair_ on Sunday January 06, 2019 @12:31AM (#18836738)
Current estimate of homeless people in SF is a bit over 7000. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_San_Franci...) 1000 condos would be a massive boon.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by lukas099 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @10:49AM (#18838859)
Regardless, whether it's out of 10,000 or 1 million, that's 1 thousand people having homes that wouldn't have.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by the_cat_kittles on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:02PM (#18835891)
housing prices are definitely influenced by supply. and homelessness is definitely driven by housing prices. so, yea.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by toufiqbarhamov on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:06PM (#18835909)
housing prices are definitely influenced by supply. and homelessness is definitely driven by housing prices. so, yea.

I think it’s more likely that mental illness and addiction are bigger factors, along with an absence of good interventions and an abuse of the prison system. Statistics showing a majority of American homeless people are either mentally ill, addicted to drugs, or both certainly support that view over yours, and reveals the deep complexity of solving the problem. You can’t just shove someone from the streets into a house and call it a day, they need far more support than that.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by specialist on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:45PM (#18836180)
The working poor are the fastest growing segment of homelessness in my jurisdiction. That doesn't mean they're all living on the street. RVs, cars, shelters, etc.

The causality of homelessness and addiction is more like a negative feedback loop. eg No insurance, get sick or injured, self medicate with alcohol or oxy, loose job, loose housing.

The link between mental illness and homelessness is pretty straight forward.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by lsiebert on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:57PM (#18836246)
What statistics are those? Can you cite your sources?

Because I've never seen anything that suggests that a majority of homeless people have addiction/mental illness problems. A higher percentage of such issues then the housed population, sure, but not a majority.

AFAIK, you can find a direct correspondence between increased rental prices and increased homelessness, and that's the main contributor. https://www.zillow.com/research/homelessness-rent-affordabil...

I mean unless you go back to the 1970's before the U.S. Government literally decimated it's housing budget (https://www.kcet.org/shows/socal-connected/the-rise-of-homel...)

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by toufiqbarhamov on Saturday January 05, 2019 @10:25PM (#18836370)
Depending on your source it ranges from ~33% to over 50%. SAMHSA stats out it over 50%, others like this out it lower around 48%:

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/addiction.pdf

https://sunrisehouse.com/addiction-demographics/homeless-pop...

https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/consequences/homeless-mental...

In January 2015, the most extensive survey ever undertaken found 564,708 people were homeless on a given night in the United States. Depending on the age group in question, and how homelessness is defined, the consensus estimate as of 2014 was that, at minimum, 25 percent of the American homeless—140,000 individuals—were seriously mentally ill at any given point in time. Forty-five percent of the homeless—250,000 individuals—had any mental illness. More would be labeled homeless if these were annual counts rather than point-in-time counts.

https://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/addiction.pdf

Although obtaining an accurate, recent count is difficult, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (2003) estimates, 38% of homeless people were dependent on alcohol and 26% abused other drugs. Alcohol abuse is more common in older generations, while drug abuse is more common in homeless youth and young adults (Didenko and Pankratz, 2007). Substance abuse is much more common among homeless people than in the general population. According to the 2006 National Household Survey on Drug Use and Health (NSDUH), 15% of people above the age of 12 reported using drugs within the past year and only 8% reported using drugs within the past month.

https://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/fixing-the-system/fe...

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by lsiebert on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:12PM (#18841648)
I don't think you can just add the Sahmsa data, as they may be separate questions. I looked for, and couldn't find the original report.

https://nationalhomeless.org/about-homelessness/ lists housing and poverty as the major factors contributing the homelessness, and under other contributing factors says that, "Approximately 16% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness"

I could go through and argue these step by step, but I think my larger point is that homelessness is an economic issue. Drug addiction rates haven't increased over time (see https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/chart-s... ) It's harder to talk about mental health rates, since so many mental health issues are untreated and increased mental health treatment can be mistaken for new rates, but I've seen nothing suggesting that rates have increased dramatically since the 1970s. Homelessness however, increased dramatically. So I don't think you can place addiction or mental illness as the main contributor.

Getting to your statement on housing first initiatives, even if homelessness was 100% addiction and mental illness related, a stable location allows better continuity of care, provision of treatment, followups etc. Certainly sticking someone in a house isn't enough, but it can be a meaningful start, even if the person suffers from addiction or mental illness. It also reduces street victimization, infectious disease spread, hypothermia, etc.

Also, I'd note that homelessness is not just a single person issue. Many families become homeless, the National Center on Family Homelessness estimates 1 in 30 children are homeless (https://www.air.org/center/national-center-family-homelessne...). Housing first helps kids and families. Incidentally domestic violence is one of the biggest causes of women and families being homeless :-(.

I believe treating homelessness as merely as mental health/addiction/public health issue and not an economic consequence to reductions in affordable housing, housing assistance, and lower real wages for low income workers misses the point.

We've probably strayed a bit far from talking about stadiums, so I'll leave it be.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by onlyrealcuzzo on Sunday January 06, 2019 @12:17AM (#18836701)
Maybe it's a coincidence, but California has twice as many homeless people per capita as the rest of the US. It also has house prices roughly twice as high.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by toufiqbarhamov on Sunday January 06, 2019 @12:12PM (#18839291)
It also has sunny weather that tends to be milder in the winter than most other places, which if you’re sleeping rough must help. Beyond that I’d hesitate to draw too many conclusions based on correlation.
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by JamisonM on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:47PM (#18836190)
Shoving people who need other supports into housing won't help homelessness for the people that need those other supports, but creating more affordability for people who need less serious interventions or are simply priced out of the market with help homelessness for them - whether those people make up the "majority" of the homeless or not.

Solving the entire problem is more complex than more housing supply, that doesn't mean that more housing supply isn't an important part of the solution.

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by the_cat_kittles on Saturday January 05, 2019 @11:30PM (#18836586)
i didnt say it was the only factor. but it is a major factor. ive read alot of stuff about it, here is the first thing that comes up when i googled just in case you are unwilling to do it yourself: https://www.inman.com/2018/03/21/rising-home-prices-lead-to-....
Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by sgt101 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @04:40AM (#18837474)
Also housing is expensive because there are not enough appropriate houses.

Even in SF with the legendary homeless problems there 1000 people off the streets would make a gigantic impact.

But what about building a giant homeless shelter instead of a stadium? Or.. how about having homeless dorms in the stadium? May be just trying would help?

Re:Taxpayers Should Never Subsidize Stadiums by Vervious on Saturday January 05, 2019 @09:43PM (#18836171)
It's like increasing the culture output in Civ