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Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 05, 2019 @11:13AM (#18832358)
As you conclude with, this is really a social/economic problem mascarading manifesting as a technical one.

The problem is doctors (and lawyers) are the best unionized workers in the country. I'm all for unions, but when a certain group of laborers is much better protected than everyone else, and their work legally distinguished creating extra monopoly power, the asymmetries erase the benefits to society.

1. All the memorization acts as gatekeeping to tighten supply. This is in addition to other explicit quotas.

2. Young post trainees (residents, young associates) do the boring drudgery (and in medicine are under-compensated relative to later). This internally is a hazing ritual, pure and simple. Externally, this is again terrible for productivity. Reducing the drudgery at the top of the food chain removes the psychological yearning for improvement from those with more power. And in the resident case exacerbates the lack of competition which would force change.

The long hours of residents + stigma talked about here also exposes the rank hypocrisy.

Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by rscho on Sunday January 06, 2019 @07:40AM (#18838041)
Your hypothesis seems to be that things would improve if doctors were less protected. If you achieve putting that into practice you will see your already damaged healthcare system literally crumble to ruins. You have to realize that whether you like it or not docs are the last line of defense. They are the ones putting in the hours to keep the ship afloat, which is why you have to pay them well. You are right in saying there are dishonest people in medicine, but if you want change then target the industry and their lobbyists. It will be much better for you and everyone else, and will bring some of the changes you seek.
Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by Ericson2314 on Sunday January 06, 2019 @08:53PM (#18842134)
I'm not even arguing a massive conspiracy, to be clear. Not all doctors are Tom Price. I don't know how it works with the ADA, but my guess is the stuff is mainly tradition, and economics informs tradition unconsciously.

And yes the institutions that most want to pay doctors left are totally untrustworthy with that money. So I am not advocating letting them do that.

I guess I'd like:

1. Government health care. Nobody can rationalize the value of their life on their death bed; markets make no sense for health.

2. After that (which fixes the deepest problems), switch to an apprentice style program where everyone starts as a nurse, and then some go back to school to learn more.

The way society valorizes doctors above all (including, implicitly, nurses) (this "last line of defense stuff", etc, etc) strikes me as ungrounded and, frankly, classist or sexist in many instances. There are other well-meaning individuals, and focusing on the individual level, whether patient or care-giver, is not the right approach to systemic problems.

Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by rscho on Monday January 07, 2019 @12:09AM (#18842929)
What I meant to say is that in the current structure it's like that and unfortunately very real. It can be changed, but probably at both a high cost and a profound cultural change. Your current social contract as a doc is

1. Do the job that is traditionally yours.

2. Handle all the impromptu alone because no one else will do it.

The second part is the problem, and is largely due to ressource constraints.

What's clear is that the system is already in pretty bad shape, so I'm just saying that the frontline workers are not a suitable target for pressure. BTW your view regarding the nurse to doctor transition would have been ok 50 years ago. Nowadays, nurses are hyperspecialized in their own niches. If you meant to say "you should know how to make a bed before doing heart surgery", I heartily agree that it would do great good to everyone if docs were to experience what life is lower down the care ladder.

Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by Ericson2314 on Monday January 07, 2019 @09:41PM (#18852631)
Thanks for replying this far after the life of the thread.

I was aware that nurses are far more trained today. But is their training that orthogonal to the doctors? I was thinking doctors starting with nurses in tandem with nurses allowed to operate more machines, do more radiology, etc.

Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by rscho on Tuesday January 08, 2019 @12:31AM (#18853457)
Well, yes you can do that for some theoretical knowledge, but it wouldn't be very practical on the job because indeed, they are not the same jobs at all. The role of nurses is to handle the expected as efficiently as possible. The job of docs is to handle anything unexpected. That is why a wide education is necessary.

You may also be surprised by the fact that specialist nurses are well paid and would often never want to "upgrade" to being a doc, precisely be cause of the additional constraints. Finally, the ego of specialist nurses rivals that of docs, and they are even stronger unionized. I don't think it's really possible to keep the same quality of care for cheaper by changing education because armies of residents and fellows are effectively doing slave labor and you'd have trouble finding cheaper and more efficient than a highly-trained slave. In my opinion, well applied technology is the only long term solution.

Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by bookofjoe on Saturday January 05, 2019 @12:06PM (#18832727)
My three-year (1977-1980) anesthesiology residency at UCLA Hospital was wonderful. Loved almost every minute, including the all-nighters. And no, I wasn't on antidepressants or stimulants other than occasional coffee.
Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by Ericson2314 on Saturday January 05, 2019 @08:48PM (#18835822)
How long were your shifts?
Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by bookofjoe on Monday January 07, 2019 @07:22AM (#18844609)
Final year of residency — schedule as senior resident in the house overnight: Day 1 (weekday): Report for duty at 3 pm, take over from the day team with night call team. Try to send everyone on day team home by 5 pm. Cover hospital and all services for Code Blues; emergency intubations; difficult catheterizations/IVs; patients who arrived late and required pre-op history & physical before next day's surgery; anesthesia for deliveries in OB; anesthesia for cases ongoing from day plus emergencies from ER and in-house. Done at 7 am the next day (Day 2). So 16 hours. No sleep as a rule. Day 2: Off (home to sleep during day to make up for missed night; to bed that night as usual. Day 3: Report for work at 7 am; light duties such as pre-op workups of ambulatory patients; start IVs/arterial lines in pre-op area; Code Blue coverage of hospital and all services. Off at 3 p.m. Day 4: Repeat Day 1. This schedule applied for six months. Note: If Day 1 fell on Saturday or Sunday or a holiday, report to work at 7 am (rather than 3 pm), otherwise identical to weekday. Off at 7 am the next day, so 24 hour shift. Sometimes a nap or two.
Re:75% of med students are on antidepressants, stimulants, o... by Ericson2314 on Tuesday January 15, 2019 @12:01AM (#18908961)
And are you aware of all the studies regarding irregular sleep schedules, and humans' inability to judge their own exhaustion and how it affects their behavior?

Great job enjoying such circumstances, but the evidence would point to it being a sub-par way to have residents perform at their best. Surely we could have regular-length shifts (with fixed start times so as to work with a reversed circadian rhythm) and more overlap to solve the patient hand-off problem.