It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden

Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by aphextron on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:19PM (#18772290)

I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from the 20th century and imitating that sound. There's zero invention to it. Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was. "Jazz" was something that happened at a specific time and place, with a specific group of people, and then it was over. It's not some transcendental overarching genre in itself to be explored. I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with than listening to someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by bevinahally on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:34PM (#18772405)

This was addressed perfectly by Robert Glasper at a workshop that I attended. To paraphrase, he was talking about current day jazz school students talking about jazz like it's a work of Mozart or Beethoven, to be reproduced perfectly. "Hip-hop musicians are more jazz than jazz musicians today"

I wouldn't write off modern jazz though. I truly think that we're experiencing something phenomenal these days. I highly recommend anything by Snarky Puppy. Case in point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by i_am_proteus on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:02PM (#18772604)

This.

Jazz is difficult to play, and what makes it interesting is that it requires musicians with the talent and dedication to master their instruments, but also open-mindedness to play new things.

There are forces at work (i.e. Wynton Marsalis) trying to canonize a certain era of jazz as an essentially classical art form while expelling other musicians from the genre. These influences are present in jazz education-- teaching musicians what is jazz and what is not jazz.

Fortunately for all of us, the likes of Snarky Puppy, Kamasi Washington, Esperanza Spalding, John Medeski, and Robert Glasper are still making new music.

Ignore the critics. Listen to something you haven't tried before. You just might like it.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by Touche on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:29PM (#18772790)

Thanks for the recommendations. I'm someone who loves the golden age of jazz but never got into modern jazz. I'd be happy to have my mind changed.

After a small sampling I think Snarky Puppy is definitely not for me. It's a little bit busy for me, I'm much more of a passive listener so anything that requires intense concentration I don't like. Kamasi Washington is much closer to being something I like. So of the songs I've listened to are also a little busy as well, though. Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by bevinahally on Thursday December 27, 2018 @05:40PM (#18773282)

I'd say that busyness is a pretty strong characteristic of modern jazz, but there's still a lot out there that you could listen to passively.

Brad Mehldau - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM Bill Laurance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o Harold Lopez-Nussa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA

I really enjoy the golden age of jazz. At the same time there's so much good music around these days and I can't help but appreciate the richness around us today. I'd love to chat about music (my email's on my profile).

Any GroundUp folks reading this, I'll see you in Miami in a few weeks :)

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by Touche on Friday December 28, 2018 @04:43PM (#18779689)

I'd love to chat about jazz! You're email is not in your profile though..

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by jdietrich on Thursday December 27, 2018 @05:45PM (#18773317)

>Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?

There is certainly a strong post-Dilla trend towards rhythmic complexity, but a lot of contemporary artists are also producing work with a gentle and meditative quality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4irB-qy8NY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS2Y_CkaXP0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siFD3ZJsYpM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_HrSD-zCF0

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by lastflowers on Thursday December 27, 2018 @09:24PM (#18774419)

Thanks for the video. (Alongside the rest of the comments here with links).

As someone who played Jazz for a Youth Ensemble at UofH while still in High School but never progressed once I left HS, I've been sort of at a loss finding some of the newer artists worth exploring. What.CD helped a lot in this respect while it was up, and I ended up buying a lot of Robert Glasper and Kamasai Washington after discovering who Flying Lotus was sampling and liking.

Got some tickets to see them Snarky in Seattle, gonna be a blast. Now I've got some a new Spotify Playlist for the next few months!

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by jacquesm on Thursday December 27, 2018 @06:13PM (#18773502)

Funny, that's the second time within the space of an hour someone mentions Snarky Puppy. Very nice stuff.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by blueboo on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:47PM (#18772900)

Silly generalizations borne of ignorance.

> Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery

...oh dear...

> someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald

dunno who's doing the former outside of Berklee practice rooms. And while hotels give venues to the latter, the heirs to Ella are people like Adele and Erykah Badu.

But maybe I'm just yelling into the wind; to a sufficiently snobbish snob, isn't everything "just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was"? Holding the past too preciously and scorning the present for its difference (while at the same time blaming it for that) is an unassailable position in the worst possible way...

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by mtalantikite on Thursday December 27, 2018 @05:45PM (#18773316)

I'd suggest you try listening to some of the artists the article was making mention of. There are lots of very interesting new concepts in the music these days. And sure, there are kids playing transcriptions of Giant Steps, but who cares, that's not where the music is really at.

The author mentioned Makaya McCraven's work, which is made by getting together an assortment of musicians to improvise at live venues in front of an audience, which is recorded and then manipulated in Ableton after the fact. Those compositions that come out of Ableton are then transcribed, arranged, and performed with a new band.

For instance, I was at the show that was the source material for this at h0l0 in Ridgewood: https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron... . Those moments happened, but in very different ways over the course of the couple hours of the night. The version that came out of Makaya's post production and collage from Ableton was then performed a few weeks ago at LPR with a full band as a regular composition.

A lot of these musicians are doing quite a lot of things you probably assume only "electronic" artists are doing, but they're just doing it in the context of "jazz" (whatever that means).

Disclaimer: Makaya's been a friend of mine for 15ish years, but the work speaks for itself.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by weerd on Thursday December 27, 2018 @10:03PM (#18774593)

So envious you are friends with such a stellar musician. I've been blown away by "In the Moment". It's 21st century jazz and a huge inspiration.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by brian-armstrong on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:30PM (#18772378)

Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:13PM (#18772685)

What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by SolaceQuantum on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:22PM (#18772753)

But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:10AM (#18775467)

>But they're a new genre, a new "sound".

The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s.

They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by Tycho on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:53AM (#18776256)

A lot of jazz, if you were to take an excerpt of the notes being played and listen to them in the cold light of day, is just objectively bad. A bit more sophisticated than, but similar to, over indulgent rock guitar soloing.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by dub on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:49PM (#18772519)

The linked article begins by mentioning Esperanza Spalding. To make the discussion more concrete, what specific recordings or artists from prior to the 70s would you argue her music a "rehashed mockery" of?

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:20PM (#18772738)

She's not your regular jazz artist. Even so, she's more like a mix of trip hop, tropicália, funk and blues. Unique blend, but hardly new avenues.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by dub on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:45PM (#18772891)

If a person defines jazz as "swing or bebop music that sounds like it did in the 40s and 50s" then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve.

That person isn't going to get much value out of _complaining_ that jazz isn't evolving by their evolution-proof definition of jazz, though.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:09AM (#18775458)

>then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve

Well, we don't. But mixing other decades-old genres is not "evolving".

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by dub on Friday December 28, 2018 @06:52PM (#18780461)

If you're not open to naming a concrete artist or recording that Esperanza is a rehash of, would you open to giving a concrete example of what you personally consider to be evolution in music within an existing genre that doesn't involve mixing elements of other genres?

Bonus points if the example doesn't depend on the introduction of a new instrument or musicmaking device that wasn't generally available when the genre began.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by tayo42 on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:58PM (#18772584)

> I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with

Who in electronic music is pushing any of the genres forward right now? Trap and festival house took over festivals and stopped innovating. dubstep seems to be on life support, same with electro house. Trance hasn't moved forward and if anything wants to go back to the 90s sound. House never seemed to get ambitious

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by zwegner on Thursday December 27, 2018 @07:16PM (#18773846)

There's really quite a lot, if you know where to look. One particular genre I enjoy is experimental bass music, that tends to emphasize extremely detailed sound design and production. Every song will generally sound completely different. Here's a few songs, all from the last year or two, that should give a rough idea of what I'm talking about:

SIXIS - Faceless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4

Mr. Bill & kLL sMTH - Killiam William: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc

Frequent - Pumple Snout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI

Freddy Todd - Audible Edibles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM

KOAN Sound - Chilli Daddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk

Futexture - Through the Edge of Never: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by tayo42 on Thursday December 27, 2018 @08:27PM (#18774186)

They're talented sure. This doesn't sound like its to new from what I was listening to 5 years ago. just looked it up, funk blaster came out in 2011. the neuro sound is pretty old too. I was pretty into glitch for a while(ive got signed tracks on beatport under the genre), ppl seem to be having fun doing their thing but idk if its progressed much.

this is 6 years old. sounds similar to those links? https://soundcloud.com/disprove/disprove-rustic-funk

ehh maybe i just need to come to terms im over it :(

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by zwegner on Thursday December 27, 2018 @09:32PM (#18774460)

That's a real nice track, thanks for that.

Admittedly, in the music I posted there's definitely roots in dubstep, neuro hop, glitch, etc. So it's not necessarily a "new" genre, and those tracks could have feasibly been made five years ago, but IMO there's so much sonic territory to explore that I still hear plenty of new tracks that sound unlike anything else I've ever heard.

I'll throw out a few more tracks in the hopes you might find something new to like:

Chee - Bane of Our Species - some heavier neuro hop type stuff, lots of broken rhythms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MI1i20GCRI

Zebbler Encanti Experience w/ Woulg - Flesh Out - alternating between spacey ambience and some super intense glitches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6OOW9j3ZCM

COPYCATT - Sweet Soul - some lush, jazzy neuro hop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfnJ8s_AhP4

Mindex - Cluster Overload - very layered, psychedelic bass type stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir_tqgnStuU

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by jdietrich on Thursday December 27, 2018 @06:21PM (#18773546)

Nils Frahm, Death Grips, Gazelle Twin, Gábor Lázár, the entire PC Music roster...

Say what you like about Oil Of Every Pearl's Un-Insides, but you can't say that it's stale.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by tayo42 on Thursday December 27, 2018 @08:33PM (#18774222)

Heh that was some interesting listening...

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by badosu on Friday December 28, 2018 @09:57AM (#18777041)

There are many artists doing that though you have to dig for that as they are not very dance friendly or require getting used to.

Some examples:

Breakcore (Venetian Snares) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1sgrw1PGM

Dark ambient (The Haxan Cloak) - https://youtu.be/9iBaQrDW544?t=590

Microtonal (Sevish) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v4JcuXoGIM

Sometimes it gets difficult to even categorize, take Igorrr for example which is a weird mix of folk/neoclassic/breakcore/black metal: https://youtu.be/UBakgOHKI-g?t=352

Sometimes you find some experimental gems on Soundcloud as well: https://soundcloud.com/isqamusic/tree_eater

There are also some more recent 'mainstreamish' subgenres of trance too, search for psycore, hitech, high-bpm, etc...

Unless you mean pushing the genre forward with also having a large audience, in which I would think more recent examples are Savant which has a lot of 8-bit and really well crafted dubstep (https://savantofficial.bandcamp.com/album/zion) or `*wave` (e.g. vaporwave).

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by WaxProlix on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:04PM (#18772615)

I feel like IDM sort of stalled, too. At one point, it seemed like we had some great minimalist work being done, some outstanding glitchy-sounding IDM coming from Autechre and Aphex Twin, and now there's-- what? Nothing, maybe. Definitely seems like we're in a rut (or maybe I'm getting too old to follow the scene properly anymore?)

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by clydethefrog on Thursday December 27, 2018 @06:33PM (#18773620)

Check out the recommended music section and their best albums of the year at Resident Advisor. Objekt's latest is probably something you would like.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by bane on Thursday December 27, 2018 @11:48PM (#18774935)

Jazz never "clicked" with me until it was described as an Avant-garde art form. Then it all made beautiful sense and also stuck it fairly firmly into early to mid 20th century sensibilities. There's been some great artists and groups sense, but that's the era that seems to have really put the boundaries on the style.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:12PM (#18772671)

There were also the circumstances (from the experience of being black in segregation-era America to jazz joints being seedy places where you could drink and smoke).

Music genres are not just knowledge of the rules (e.g. of harmonization) and technical skills. Without the culture that sustains them they are less powerful, or worse, kitch.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by beatpanda on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:40PM (#18772854)

Listen to the artists named in the article. Half of the players that are part of the recent wave are on the same record labels as your "weird new electronic artist". The Comet Is Coming, one of Shabaka Hutching's many bands, is a great example, and so is anything on Brainfeeder.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by walshemj on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:31PM (#18772387)

You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it.

Id agree on the performers when you have to have done a degree in music theory to appreciate it.

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by coldtea on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:20PM (#18772743)

>You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it.

Doesn't that makes the parent's point even more?

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by majgrz on Friday December 28, 2018 @03:17AM (#18775490)

true, only Nils Petter Molvær is edible for me. After years of listening to chillout I started to hate drums, now only ambient is approachable. There is small exception: Gas (Wolfgang Voigt), but it is more like sound of engine than drums: https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41

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Re:It’s a Great Age for Jazz, but Don’t Call It Golden by 3131s on Thursday December 27, 2018 @04:55PM (#18772959)

Pure ignorance.

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