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Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by adventured on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @03:25PM (#18764574)
> These individuals are free to create their own businesses and websites which facilitate whatever kind of discourse they please, nobody can take that away from them

That's very clearly not true at all. Just a dozen or so major companies or orgs can work together to shut you out of having nearly any reach at all. For practical purposes, you'll have zero reach. Any combined small group of them can easily be enough to make your life online dramatically more difficult.

They can get you at the domain registration (oligopoly + mixture of cartel behavior). Oh, well, you have no right to a domain registration.

They can get you at the ISP level (oligopoly). Oh, well, you have no right to Internet access.

They can get you at the discovery level. Oh, well, Google (monopoly), Facebook (monopoly), Twitter, Reddit, et al. don't owe you any discovery access.

They can get you at the hosting level. Oh, well, nobody owes you access to any sort of hosting, from Azure or AWS to Wordpress or Tumblr.

They can get you at the network transit level. If just a few ISPs or large backbone operators in the US blacklist your site from their customers, few will be able to see you. Again for practical purposes, you're dead in that market.

Google as one example has openly bragged about their potential to conspire with other malevolent entities to tightly control expression/speech. They know their position and exactly how they can abuse it to their political or ideological bias.

In the age of inherently subjective 'hate speech' as The Devil that must be stopped at any and all costs, none of this is far fetched in the least. It's going to get a lot worse yet; the topics covered by 'hate speech' blockades will get far more extensive in the coming years. The enemies of free speech have been wildly emboldened by their successes and the lack of push-back. The entire West is going to end up with the equivalent of a less restrictive Chinese firewall, and that's where liberal Democracy is guaranteed to die.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by reaperducer on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @03:28PM (#18764601)
Just a dozen or so major companies or orgs can work together to shut you out of having nearly any reach at all.

Yep. And it's happened in the past. That's why so many tinfoil hat types ended up on shortwave radio, or sticking flyers to lampposts.

Desperate people desperately trying to get a message out, with no means to do so.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by remarkEon on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:04PM (#18764872)
But the line cannot become "tinfoil hat types" because that is a completely undefinable measure. People who correctly predicted the 2008 financial crisis were considered "tinfoil hat types". Should they have been dropped off these platforms because they sounded crazy at the time?
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by beat on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @04:20PM (#18765022)
Surely you see the difference between the "sounds crazy" of predicting a market collapse, and the "sounds crazy" of saying we should deport or execute all Muslims (as a for example).
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by remarkEon on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:48PM (#18765573)
Sure I can.

But that isn’t the point. Should we not even be allowed to discuss a hostile immigration policy because it “sounds crazy”? That in and of itself sounds crazy to me.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by voidpointercast on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @07:21PM (#18766124)
of course you should be able to discuss it, just in the correct medium for it. If Patreon doesn't want you, bypass it and create your own, or donate directly to the individual. However, with how much dishonest argumentation and outright lying that has been going on in recent years, being forced to accept everyone's speech, equally is farcical at best!
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by remarkEon on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @07:42PM (#18766225)
Okay.

Which correct mediums? And which correct payment processors, while we’re on the subject?

The argument that you’re being “forced” to hear arguments you don’t want to hear is equally as farcical. Just, like, turn off your screen man.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by PavlovsCat on Thursday December 27, 2018 @03:46AM (#18768332)
> being forced to accept everyone's speech

We're talking about mobs that hound people online, instead of simply not clicking on the content they don't like.

So you tunred it on its head exactly, directly after complaining about dishonest argumentation.

And anyone who thinks clicking a button is "honest argumentation", is really just betraying how they're using a phrase they heard others take seriously. You don't even know what it is. This thread is littered with the proof of those unable and unwilling to argue, and they honestly think they can force this, heh.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by zepto on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:00PM (#18765299)
If the difference is so obvious, why do we need to censor?
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by wsy on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:19PM (#18765412)
The difference between food and waste is also obvious, still we bring the waste to the garbage can.

Also, nobody censors. A distributor decided not to distribute the stuff anymore.

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by remarkEon on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @06:00PM (#18765625)
This “well it’s not really censorship if it’s not the government” point is useless, shallow, and ultimately meaningless. Your garbage analogy (no pun intended) fails on its face because in that case the government is explicitly telling you what is trash and what is recycling; what is compost and what requires special disposal.

This idea begets that we have agreed to outsource what is and isn’t “allowed” to be said in the public space (and these are public spaces) to private corporations that absolutely do have their own agenda and objectives. Are we as a society ready to do that? Who watches the Watchmen?

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by beat on Thursday December 27, 2018 @09:42AM (#18769661)
A business deciding how its facilities are used isn't censorship. If I go to a movie theater, buy a ticket, and then start shouting at the audience about how Jews control Hollywood, they'll throw me out. If I mail a dick pic to the newspaper and demand they publish it, they will not. Are you saying these things are censorship? Certainly, they're about businesses limiting "free speech".

To use a closer analogy, Tumblr recently banned "adult content", including nudity. This affected friends of mine. Is that censorship?

Ok, so why can Patreon not decide what is and is not an acceptable use of its platform?

Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by zepto on Thursday December 27, 2018 @10:33AM (#18769989)
Sure, fine, let’s look at it that way. But then we have to accept that these businesses are responsible for everything they allow. We can hold them responsible for any copyright violations and defamation they carry since according to you they ‘decided it was acceptable use’.
Re:Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Re... by aeternus on Wednesday December 26, 2018 @05:35PM (#18765501)
When has this happened in the past? This would be an impressive accomplishment to get all those entities to both agree on what to censor and succeed in the coordination required to apply that censorship, especially without government support.

Even when there is overwhelming international, corporate, and government support, internet censorship has not been effective. Look at the resiliency of the pirate bay and darknet markets.