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Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by Jedi72 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @08:41PM (#18730843)
I watched a documentary on Scientology ages ago about how they were suing the crap out of people for DDoSing their site. The problem was these people were basically just kids, most were ~14 years old, who saw something on 4chan and followed instructions. I believe this was ~2001 [correction: 2008]. One of their lawyers was going with the defence that DDoS was equivalent to a sit-in protest, not unlike those used during the segregation protests in the US in the 1960s, specifically of diners who refused black customers. Sending 200 people into a diner and refusing to move is basically IRL denial of service. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact name of the documentary but this wiki page covers the events https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology. I always wondered how successful that defence was, I havent been able to find a follow-up.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by wildmusings on Friday December 21, 2018 @02:18AM (#18731903)
The major problem with that defense is that sit-ins aren’t legal. There is no general right to occupy private property to make a political point.

You may think that’s what was going in the 60s lunch counter sit-ins, but the question there was the legality of racial discrimination in privately owned restaurants. The court never ruled on the exact issue, made moot by the Civil Rights Act. But there was never any suggestion that sitting-in somewhere where you had no right to be was legal.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by blitmap on Friday December 21, 2018 @09:14AM (#18733394)
Speaking as someone who wasn't alive during the 60s:

I thought the objective of a sit-in was to gain service (not obstruct it)? My understanding is that people of color were not served when they were very willing to pay for and make use of it.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by chrissam on Friday December 21, 2018 @09:52AM (#18733590)
The objective of sit-ins was to protest, not to buy lunch. If you wanted lunch, you'd go to a place that would serve you and the status quo would be maintained. It's immaterial whether people participating in sit-ins had money or planned to eat.

You might say that the long term objective of sit-ins was to gain service, but only inasmuch as "gaining service" fell under the umbrella of "equal rights".

Finally, as a possibly unwelcome aside, I find it somewhat irritating to see civil rights protestors referred to as "people of color". The Civil Rights Movement was about acknowleging shared humanity, not dividing people into groups based on privilege. Also, Americans, dark-skinned and otherwise, participated in these movements. Many sit-ins involved large groups of white people sitting down with at least one black person, so all of them would be refused service. The Civil Rights Movement of the 60s sought allies regardless of race, which is perhaps why it was so successful.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by chimeracoder on Friday December 21, 2018 @02:00PM (#18735607)
> The Civil Rights Movement was about acknowleging shared humanity, not dividing people into groups based on privilege. The Civil Rights Movement of the 60s sought allies regardless of race, which is perhaps why it was so successful.

This is rather revisionist.

The term "privilege" in its contemporary usage hadn't been coined then, but if you go back to the writings of early civil rights leaders, it's pretty clear that the purpose was not about "acknowledging shared humanity". It was specifically about liberation of Black people, and the fight to secure equal rights for Black people. It was not uniformly welcoming to "allies" of other races, and in fact, many of its most successful leaders were skeptical at best of support from people who weren't black.

We've since whitewashed the legacy of its most famous leaders, such as Martin Luther King Jr., but even he was a lot less interested in "shared humanity" and non-black "allies". Yes, if you go by popular representation of him today, that's the impression you'll get of him, but as often is the case, the primary sources tell a very different story.

The statement "the Civil Rights Movement sought allies regardless of race, which is perhaps why it was so successful" is only correct if you are referring to the Civil Rights Movement as a retroactive construct: the way that contemporary society has essentially retconned the history of the real civil rights movement. Yes, that depiction of it has been very successful, because that depiction is more palatable and appealing to people who aren't black (specifically: less threatening to white people), and that's why we think of Martin Luther King, Jr. as a milquetoast nonviolent preacher who gave speeches but didn't really step on anyone's toes, instead of the revolutionary, armed radical man that he really was.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by bluGill on Friday December 21, 2018 @10:20AM (#18733793)
More or less.

Remember though that if the business is unwilling to have you on premises you are trespassing and that is illegal. You can be arrested for sitting in a chair after you are told to leave.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by lcw on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:54PM (#18731306)
I saw this documentary also, but personally I thought the defense was seriously flawed. A sit in costs the business money by preventing them from making money, but ddos'ing not only cost money because people can't use the site but also costs the company money to deal with the excess traffic. So to me the adequate metaphor is throwing bricks through the window of an establishment you don't like. Would love to here others thoughts?
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by matuszeg on Thursday December 20, 2018 @11:24PM (#18731395)
Having to pay for the extra traffic is similar to having to pay for rent and staffing for that day of the sit in. Its built in costs of operating that have to be paid because their time of running the business was temporarily suspended.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by cft on Friday December 21, 2018 @03:23AM (#18732070)
If you have a serious sustained DDoS (40+Gbps as mentioned in the affidavit), most ISPs will first null route you, and then attempt to terminate your contact. I leave it up to you to draw the parallel with the corresponding landlord's actions.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by stef25 on Friday December 21, 2018 @06:29AM (#18732717)
Is the obvious solution Cloudflare? Otherwise I don't see how this isn't the perfect way to knock competitors offline.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by Arie on Friday December 21, 2018 @07:23AM (#18732904)
For web traffic, yes, it's a solution. But if you deal with gameserver traffic like me, Cloudflare can't save you.

OVH's anti-DDoS (GAME variant) is quite good in my experience for protecting non-web traffic.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by jgrahamc on Friday December 21, 2018 @07:27AM (#18732918)
Cloudflare has a product called Spectrum that is used for game servers and other things: https://www.cloudflare.com/en-gb/products/cloudflare-spectru... (does arbitrary TCP and UDP).
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by lcw on Thursday December 20, 2018 @11:33PM (#18731432)
If you have to hire 10x more staff then usual and have them sit around.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by BeeOnRope on Thursday December 20, 2018 @11:38PM (#18731449)
Sure, there's a quantitative difference but not necessarily a qualitative one.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by ben-schaaf on Friday December 21, 2018 @02:17AM (#18731900)
I mostly agree, if the DDoS is just more real visitors. But it's a whole other problem when the attacker is using amplification or a botnet. Then it's more the equivalent of stealing a bunch of people's trucks and then driving them into the store to stop business.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by lcw on Thursday December 20, 2018 @11:56PM (#18731509)
Right I get that in both cases the business can't operate, but if you take an example of a modern web application and a ddos with an ounce of sophistication it can be hard to quickly understand what is happening. So your autoscaling ramped up then you realize something extraordinary is happening. By that time you start trying to stop things at the edge, but some costly damage could have already been done as far as hardware resources or engineering time. Now your spending more money than you would have had to in a normal day of business, and you aren't making money is my point.
Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by salawat on Friday December 21, 2018 @02:09AM (#18731881)
Then the sit in was a resounding success.

The fact you've used computers to magnify the effect of the protest to your detriment is besides the point.

You set up the business, and arranged for automatic scaling ahead of time. This doesn't entitle you to some special protection because you never took into account something like that could happen.

That's the risk inherent to technology. It lets you.scale. Even when you'd rather you didn't.

Re:FBI kicks some of the worst ‘DDoS for hire’ sites off the... by muthdra on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:13PM (#18731184)
Sounds like a good doc. Perhaps it was this one?

http://wearelegionthedocumentary.com/