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Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by i_am_proteus on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @06:33PM (#18721020)
Couple of notes from someone who has "designed" (adapted old schematics, really) and built tube amps for both hifi and electric guitar:

- These things run at low voltages (5-80VDC), which is fantastic for a designer, because 'real' vacuum tubes need several hundred volts DC, which means a big power supply transformer/rectifier/filter network.

- These things don't appear to be able to source a lot of current, which makes them good for preamp and tone circuits, not so much for power amp circuits. Classic tube guitar amps got a lot of their tone from the phase splitter, power amp tubes, and power amp transformers. Don't expect an all-nutube-amp.

- Utility for guitar amps would be for "hybrid" amps with a tube preamp and tone circuit feeding a solid-state power amp. There's certainly room for experimentation by amp designers here, since most contemporary tube amps just copy old circuits (mostly Fender and Vox) and use the same tubes they used (12AX7 being the ubiquitous preamp tube). I doubt the NuTube sounds like a 12AX7 when dropped into the same circuit.

- Utility for hifi is questionable. An all-tube design allows for a very linear, low-parts-count amplifier. These will need to be mated to a solid-state power amp, which nullifies the advantage of a tube amp and enters "vacuum tube as marketing gimmick" territory.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by jdietrich on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @07:02PM (#18721240)
>Classic tube guitar amps got a lot of their tone from the phase splitter, power amp tubes, and power amp transformers.

100% this. A tube gain stage in isolation isn't especially difficult to imitate using solid-state electronics or DSP, but sounds nothing like a tube amp.

>Utility for guitar amps would be for "hybrid" amps with a tube preamp and tone circuit feeding a solid-state power amp.

The Vox MV50 amps make a decent attempt at this, pairing a Nutube with a class D power stage. It's tiny, it's reasonably loud and it sounds pretty good.

I suspect the lack of interest from other manufacturers is mainly due to cost; for the price of a single Nutube module, you could add a decent DSP chip and gain a whole bunch of extra functionality. An ornamental 12AX7 and an orange LED has better showroom appeal and costs significantly less. Purists will still want real tubes and real transformers, budget-oriented players will want an amp with all the DSP bells and whistles, leaving the Nutube caught in an uncomfortably narrow niche.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by WalterBright on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:40AM (#18723576)
I don't understand why a tube's profile cannot be emulated with a DSP and so be indistinguishable.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by Filligree on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:10AM (#18723713)
Oh, it absolutely can. The target market for tubes isn't people who do double blind tests, though.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by ehnto on Thursday December 20, 2018 @06:18AM (#18723976)
They want tubes and the tube sound, not just the sound. I can understand, it's a matter if authenticity rather than practicality. Just like a kit car replica versus an original car. The original will always be more authentic, and there will be some who care more than others.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by Applejinx on Thursday December 20, 2018 @08:07AM (#18724554)
Indistinguishable is a mighty strong word. We haven't completely mastered digital audio and to think we have is foolish (I do DSP for digital audio for a living, I'm Chris from Airwindows)

Also, a tube has absolutely no latency.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by TimTheTinker on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:42PM (#18729878)
> a tube has absolutely no latency

I think that's the primary key here. We can decently emulate a tube amp in software even (and that can improve indefinitely as our knowledge improves), but we'll never create drop-in circuit element emulators either in silicon or software without adding latency.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by jgalentine007 on Thursday December 20, 2018 @09:31PM (#18731044)
As far as guitar tube amps go - check out a Kemper Profiler or Fractal Audio system, it's pretty much there. That said, I'd take the pure simplicity of a nice tube amp any day.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by omershapira on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @09:09PM (#18721958)
> Classic tube guitar amps got a lot of their tone from the phase splitter, power amp tubes, and power amp transformers. Don't expect an all-nutube-amp.

Subjectively, the one effect often missing from preamp-only tube amps I've tried is power stage sag[1]. I've seen DSP software with it (or rather, a knob for it). In that respect, I'm not sure the solid state / preamp tube / all-tube segmentation can be justified anymore: modern modelling amps sound terrific (subjectively, to my ears), offer sonic variety (because why not), and have a completely different idea of value (comfort, power and size); With that, the NuTube just feels like it's going after an audience who won't be convinced that electrons flowing through a DSP are made of the same quantum stuff, which is unfortunate.

[1] Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INi6lepBZt0

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by microcolonel on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @10:42PM (#18722324)
Frankly I think the world is (rightly) going the way of DSP + objective (probably class D more and more) power amp. If there is something nice about tubes, it is probably captured in somebody's software by now.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by WalterBright on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:58AM (#18723663)
I don't know about the dynamics of tubes, but I have yet to hear a credible replication of the sound of a trumpet with a synthesizer.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by pjc5e on Thursday December 20, 2018 @09:20AM (#18725049)
The problem of synthesizing a believable trumpet sound is way harder than creating a believable tube distortion. The trumpet is a complex system consisting of the the interplay between the horn and the lips, tongue, throat and lungs of player. Also, the way you interact with the trumpet is widely different from the way you play a piano, resulting in different musical expression.

Compared to that, the dynamic of a tube are pretty simple, though creating a truthful emulation of a full amplifier is still a hard.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by dharma1 on Friday December 21, 2018 @03:28AM (#18732086)
I don't think tubes will help much for synthesising a trumpet. You can get pretty good results with physical modeling, though. https://youtu.be/nRkT2PyH3kg
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by Applejinx on Thursday December 20, 2018 @08:19AM (#18724625)
Hell, you're not going to get a credible replication of the sound of a trumpet off a CD… not compared to real life. Trumpets are among the few sorts of instruments that produce an overtone sequence going WAY beyond human hearing. It might not take that much more to cover those bases (I personally think 24/96 is more than enough and as such ought to be considered the baseline) and the heavy lifting will definitely be done by the amplification and speakers, but even a compact disc is going to fall short, much less a synthesizer.
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by WalterBright on Thursday December 20, 2018 @05:15PM (#18729661)
I well know that any playback of recorded sound is hopelessly inadequate compared to live sound (I don't know why).

But listen to any Herb Alpert recording, and then listen to any synthesized trumpet. The gulf is as wide as the Atlantic. (Part of the reason is that Alpert plays with the notes and the transitions, while a synthesizer just emits a note.)

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by microcolonel on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:36PM (#18731248)
> while a synthesizer just emits a note

Well, maybe a crap one, or one not designed for that. Trumpets have some convenient physics that are (comparatively) simple to model, the problem you're thinking of may have more to do with the control system (i.e. not based on actuation of valves, but skipping right to the oscillators) than some inherent weakness of synthesis.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by WalterBright on Friday December 21, 2018 @12:43AM (#18731632)
I've heard a lot of synthetic trumpet sounds on various popular songs. None sound much like a trumpet, so I am skeptical it is a "simple to model" problem.

(I played a trumpet as a kid, so I suppose my ear for it is more discerning than most. My talent proved elusive, but the lasting value was I can appreciate how incredibly good Herb Alpert was. He could play like Fred Astaire could dance and Ernst Udet could fly.)

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by ZoomZoomZoom on Thursday December 20, 2018 @04:12AM (#18723465)
By the way, I totally understand why almost all guitar amps that marketed as hybrid use preamp tube stages and solid-state power amps. However, the reasons are almost all are from the standpoint of engineering, not sound quality.

From my experience, overdriven guitar signal formed by ubiquitous FET-based approach driving a saturated tube power amp can sound gorgeous, tight and punchy, and feel very "natural" and responsive. 12AX7s into your ordinary solid-state power amps - not so much.

Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by jackhack on Thursday December 20, 2018 @10:00AM (#18725412)
A FET preamp feeding a tube power section, pushed into clipping is at the heart of the Dumble tube amps. The Overtone Special (OTS) and Steel String Singer (SSS) are among the most desirable and most expensive guitar amplifiers in the world with models selling for $50,000 to $100,000+
Re:Korg NuTube, vacuum tube for the 21st century by diydsp on Thursday December 20, 2018 @12:58PM (#18727242)
Also the tube pre-amp stage in the Dean Markley RM 80 DR is absolutely gorgeous sounding, as corroborated by its intricate tone-shaping in the schematic. My friend and I use it with keys and synths without even touching the transistor output stage.