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Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by anonytrary on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:12PM (#18653092)
Isn't the unspoken rule to just ignore GDPR until you're big enough and EU starts bitching at you, at which point you just pay them off and spend some resources on compliance?
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by qwerty456127 on Monday December 10, 2018 @10:40PM (#18653194)
How is GDPR a problem at all? Is it so hard to avoid personalized tracking of unregistered users, ask users for their consent at sign-up time and implement a button for them to export and delete their data?
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by boznz on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:25AM (#18653432)
The irony is most sites use cookies to click on the "this site uses cookies" and as I block them I get the same message ad-infinitum on every fucking site... and I'm in NZ NOT the EU
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by WA on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:35AM (#18653591)
Blame the web devs and their bad implementation of it. It’s really not that hard to get right (unless of course you don’t really want to comply).
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by andybak on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:18AM (#18653900)
Agree that getting the region wrong is sloppy.

But how does one avoid asking every time when cookies are blocked? What other implementation option is possible? This is what cookies are for.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:31AM (#18653947)
> But how does one avoid asking every time when cookies are blocked? What other implementation option is possible? This is what cookies are for.

Local storage? Detect if cookies are blocked? Or, simply don't use cookies for purposes other than providing the service - which exempts you from the need to show the message?

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by ahje on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:45AM (#18653992)
> Or, simply don't use cookies for purposes other than providing the service

This, or as a minimum: Don't track people who has the DNT header set.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by dorgo on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:26AM (#18654115)
You mean the DNT header which is set by default in browsers? Then we can simplify your proposal to: "Don't track people"
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:04PM (#18656720)
You say this as if you're thinking that tracking is a normal thing to do to your users. I'm happy GDPR is fixing such misconceptions.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by icebraining on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:46AM (#18654192)
The only browser that set it by default was IE, and Microsoft ended that with Windows 10.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by ahje on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:19AM (#18655104)
I've seen different Linux distros have it as default both for Firefox and Chromium as well.

But yes, the userbase for those is so small that we can assume that people with the header on simply don't want to be tracked.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by pluma on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:02AM (#18655023)
Cookies don't matter. Personally identifiable information matters. Storing a "seen_cookie_notice=true" flag is fine (assuming the banner itself indicates that interacting with it will set the flag) as long as you don't use it for anything else.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by marcosdumay on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @10:53AM (#18656112)
The GP does not store cookies. How will the site store the seen_cookie_notice?
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by nicky0 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @07:43AM (#18654927)
I wish browsers had a "do track" option which told every website: yes I consent, do what you want, just don't show me a popup. These cookies banners and GDPR popups have ruined the web.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by AsyncAwait on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:35AM (#18655181)
So ads that follow you everywhere and inescapable email signup forms haven't done it, but "cookies banners and GDPR popups have ruined the web". Got it.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by nicky0 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:20AM (#18655419)
I know you are being sarcastic, but honestly yes. I'm not too bothered about being tracked and having targeted ads. It doesn't negatively affect my experience. My ad-blocker takes care of most of the ads anyway.

These intrusive popups and banners, on the other hand — especially the new post-GDPR in-your-face ones which I have to dismiss before I can even read a simple article — have ruined the user experience of the web. And my ad blocker doesn't seem to be able to block them.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by AsyncAwait on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:33PM (#18658106)
There are lists that can block these popups, if that's really your main concern. Still, I think saying that they're the bigger problem than the pervasive tracking they try to protect their users against, including only casual users, is a bit much.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by nicky0 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:08PM (#18659854)
I can only speak for myself. The popuips are the bigger problem.

There's a lot of hand wringing about tracking but what harm does it actually do?

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by IanCal on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:51AM (#18653802)
How is it easy to limit this? It's about how you treat EU citizens, not where people currently are.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by roblabla on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:30AM (#18653723)
How do you propose the website remembers your preference except through the use of a cookie? Cookies are the only way to keep client side state in a cross browser way. Keep in mind, cookies for non tracking purpose are allowed under the cookie law.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by majewsky on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:47AM (#18653786)
They should use localStorage. Unlike cookies, localStorage doesn't get transmitted to the server.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by jinglebells on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:13AM (#18654553)
Certain security policies block localStorage, though. There doesn't seem to be a perfect place to store it.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by josefx on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:07AM (#18653864)
Using a cookie that fits within the constraints imposed by the GDPR? It does have a list of criteria to which data it applies.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by a_imho on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:47AM (#18653783)
Only remember my preferences when I explicitly ask the site and opt-in to cookies?
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by dorgo on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:31AM (#18654134)
That's the reason you see cookie-banners. They are your chance to opt-in.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by a_imho on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:22AM (#18654589)
Surely not, I see cookie banners at the very first chance they can throw them at me, way before I would need them for anything.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by umichguy on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:08AM (#18653527)
Kia ora! The "issue" here is that most sites which want to cater to worldwide audiences pretty much try to comply with influential legislation to stay on the good side. And GDPR/EU regs wield a big enough stick and come from a large enough region that you can't ignore them unless you want to block your site out completely to traffic coming from the EU. So they try and just do a worldwide rollout, irrespective of where you live. Of course, you can always implement this selectively but maybe more tricky to small and medium businesses, so they play and safe. Probably. I am speculating here.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by q12we34rt5 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @04:07AM (#18654051)
The "EU" as a market is only important to the largest players or as an after thought once you have a solid footing in e.g. the US for one simple reason. The EU has too many languages so you can't just target the entire population in one shot like you can in single language even larger economy in America. Even if you wanted to target the entire EU, in my personal experience I can tell you that some web services work well in a place like Germany yet fail hard in France so most small to mid-level players are only going to go in places where they make the most money and it may be years before they ever end up in say Italy or the Netherlands. All that adds up to the EU regulations having a much smaller impact on most startups than you seem to believe. And that impact will be zero on the ones who look at the regulatory landscape as it exists now and just decide to stay out.

Edit: I see somebody chose to express disagreement via mouse rather than keyboard. Interesting.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by qwerty456127 on Thursday December 13, 2018 @06:28AM (#18671506)
As a European who has never been to an English-speaking country yet has always preferred English versions of everything (and all my friends are bi- or tri- (or more) lingual, reading something in English or in our mother tongues is a near-zero difference for us) I wonder what is the actual proportion of Europeans who can not be targeted by a service in English... I've heard learning English is not particularly popular among e.g. Italians but in Scandinavia and in France almost every "millennial" is more or less fluent in English and comfortable with it.

PS: I didn't downvote, I never do - I'm a downvote-hater :-)

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by jononor on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:09AM (#18654277)
Don't worry, it happens even when you allow cookies. Because a good part of the news sites will ask you again (in a couple of days/visits) if you have disallowed them. In case you accidentally clicked the wrong thing, I guess is their excuse. Accept button is a single up-front button, where as Rejects are hidden behind Manage... Needs to be cracked down on.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:26AM (#18656386)
Is it so hard to ... implement a button for them to export and delete their data?

Yes, it is. Although we're constantly updating the code, my team's responsible for a web site for which the data model is nearly a decade old. And the overall business process that it feeds is about 25 years old. We don't know everywhere that the user's data goes in order to export it. Building the support to do so is pretty big. And being able to expunge their data on request is huge, given that data models were constructed without thought to a requirement that the user data be purgeable. It turns out that the requirement isn't quite that broad, but then the legal advice to help determine where it does need to be done isn't cheap.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by anonytrary on Wednesday December 19, 2018 @04:18PM (#18719740)
I don't disagree. My comment was mostly tongue in cheek, but I guess a /s was needed. I'm glad it spurred some discussion, though.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by sacado2 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:03AM (#18654259)
Avoiding personalized tracking of unregistered users means you can't use Google Analytics or something equivalent. Not that it's impossible per se, but these tools have a strong added value, so...
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by elliekelly on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:45AM (#18655560)
> but these tools have a strong added value, so...

Strong added value to who? If Google Analytics disappeared tomorrow do you think the average internet user would be at all impacted?

Remember, GDPR is about protecting the user.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by qwerty456127 on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @09:27PM (#18660898)
I admit this is a very amateurish view but I don't really understand why do people need Google Analytics or anything like that at all. As a webmaster you can log every request a depersonalized way recording the fact of a request to a particular HTTP resource from a particular country originating from a particular website as a referrer at particular time. You don't need any 3-rd party service for this and this doesn't mean tracking any particular user.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by CWuestefeld on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @11:19AM (#18656330)
I'm not a fan of GDPR, but no, it doesn't mean that. It only means that GA can't be used in a way that allows you to correlate the data back to a particular individual. You can still use it in aggregate, and you can even follow individual threads through the system; you just can't know who the user was.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by jcranmer on Monday December 10, 2018 @11:59PM (#18653373)
The problem with GDPR is that the actual scope of it applies to is rather unclear, and the regulatory guidance hasn't been reassuring as to what the actual extent will be in practice.

For example, do email addresses on the comments on a blog site fall under that protection? If so, there are some agencies in charge of enforcing GDPR that are violating GDPR on their sites...

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by zaarn on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:41AM (#18653607)
EMail Addresses are protected by the GDPR. Passwords are too.

THat doesn't mean you can't use email addresses without asking; ie if the comment system uses emails to notify people of replies or moderative actions, then it's totally legit to collect it for exactly this purpose.

You only need consent if the personal data collected isn't strictly necessary for the operation of your site, ie if you use tracking cookies and sell emails to advertisers.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @12:21AM (#18653423)
> For example, do email addresses on the comments on a blog site fall under that protection?

That is not unclear at all. They absolutely do.

That doesn't mean you can't have them, but it means you need consent, you need to be clear about how you will use them and you need to let people withdraw consent.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by perl4ever on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:15AM (#18653680)
You can't win an argument about whether something is unclear by proving (let alone merely asserting) it is so. This is something a lot of people seem unclear on.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @03:47AM (#18654002)
The only people unclear on this point are people who have failed to do even the most basic research into what GDPR says. It is blindingly obvious that an email is information that can be used to identify a person.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by perl4ever on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:17AM (#18654307)
I'm not arguing with you. If it is clear, then it suggests people saying it is not clear are basically trolls. Surely you can see that telling an apparent troll to admit being a troll is unproductive. You might be right, or you might be wrong, but you can't win that debate because it's about inner motivations and perceptions and not verifiable facts.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:56AM (#18655285)
Whether something is clear or not is not dependent on whether a specific person knows it.

A reasonable person who is even minimally informed about GDPR will know that an email address is covered by GDPR, hence it is "clear".

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by majewsky on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:49AM (#18653794)
Why though? Email addresses are quite obviously "something that identifies a person".
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by perl4ever on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @05:31AM (#18654354)
I'm not debating what's clear or not to me. My point is that it's subjective and if someone says a thing is unclear, you can not necessarily make it clear to them or force them to admit they are lying about their perception. Arguing with confusion is like debating whether someone is in pain when they act like they are. It could be they are lying. It could be they are not. It could be they are particularly stupid.

I want to emphasize - you can be right or wrong about the GDPR, but that's not the same thing as being right or wrong about whether people are confused by it.

I think it should be obvious that debating feelings or perceptions or emotions of other people tends to lead to unproductive interpersonal interactions, but perhaps others have not noticed this phenomenon. I can't imagine winning a debate with someone over whether they are trolling or not. Even if it's really obvious, nobody can see inner motivations for sure.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by eitland on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @06:27AM (#18654608)
> It could be they are lying. It could be they are not. It could be they are particularly stupid.

At the point where one can prove that one part is too (trollish || stupid) I think it is reasonable to limit how much we care about their opinions.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by pluma on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:21AM (#18655117)
You seem to be making the same mistake a lot of people (especially those from countries with no regard for consumer protection or privacy) do with regard to the GDPR:

It's not about e-mail addresses. It's about personal information. It's not about what data you can have. It's about how you can use data.

You don't own my personal information, I do. If I give my information to you, you can only use it in whichever ways I consented to when I gave it to you. If you want to use it for something else, you need to ask me again. And you can't just give me a blanket CYA contract to sign just so you can decide later.

This is precisely how it would work in normal everyday social interactions. If I go to a Mom & Pop shop and give them my number so they can call me when my favorite brand of soup is back in stock that doesn't mean they can call me to tell me about random new stuff they carry or give my number away to someone else.

Personal information is owned by the person it is about. It gets murky with aggregates (but the GDPR helps you figure out which ones are still considered personally identifiable) but it's blindingly obvious for things like "enter your e-mail address".

Do you have an e-mail input in a contact form? I'm going to assume that'll be used so you can respond to me although it'd nice of you if you say that explicitly right there on the form. If it's a comment form, why do you need my address? Who will it be shown to? What are you going to do with it? Where will it be stored and how can I tell you to delete it later? That's why you now need to think up a Privacy Policy: these are questions you always had to answer for yourself but now you're legally required to make conscious decisions about this.

Is this too much of a hassle? That likely means you didn't have any good reason to collect that information in the first place. Great! Personal information is a liability and it's better to collect less of it than more. Although that may disappoint future Zuckerbergs, collecting people's private information (even if they give it away voluntarily) imbues a lot of responsibility on you if you don't want to be completely careless. And the GDPR is an example for a policy that gives that responsibility teeth and punishes companies who are careless.

You don't want to store passwords in plaintext. You don't want to hoard credit card details or medical data. Personally identifiable information is no different. The GDPR just provides ways for you to store and use that information legally, in addition to reiterating that privacy and control of your personal information is a human right.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by im3w1l on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @01:37AM (#18653594)
> How is GDPR a problem at all?

I'm sure there will be a significant price tag just for training people to be compliant with it.

Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by raverbashing on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @02:50AM (#18653796)
Here's your one line compliance GDPR course: don't treat customer data like it's something to be sold to anyone that asks for it. PII is not yours.
Re:EU Copyright: Block Everything, Never Make Mistakes, but ... by pluma on Tuesday December 11, 2018 @08:00AM (#18655012)
If you escalate things to the point where you need to "pay them off" you're entering serious monetary fines territory.