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Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by mindslight on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:13PM (#18611430)
The metric of "net (negative)" is nonsensical on a multidimensional question, due to varying utility functions.

Faceboot directly optimizes to increase time spent on their site, wasting human potential.

Faceboot also provides an effortless way to check in with loved ones after a disaster, easing human suffering.

Two people will look at both of these facts, value each one differently, and come up with a different "net".

Furthermore, it is not appropriate to give Faceboot all the credit for either facet! People could check in with text messages, and people would be in dopamine loops even with software purely under their control.

So the only thing we can really do is discuss each facet independently, in the context of first principles / morals.

I personally think much of what is wrong with Faceboot is due to the conflict of interest from a third party mediating social relationships, and the inhuman scale of centralization. But the more that comes out about inherent social media narcissism, I also see that there is no silver bullet.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by drewblaisdell on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:29PM (#18611620)
I agree with much of what you wrote, but disagree that the question is nonsense. From a specific utilitarian perspective, "wasted human potential" only matters in so much as it impacts human suffering. If we want to maximize pleasure and minimize suffering, the units are still the same in both opposing points you mentioned - it is just really, really hard to measure.

In practical terms, coming up with qualitative points and weighting them in a good-faith-but-ultimately-arbitrary-manner is good enough, and something that everyone does constantly. For example, I suspect the average HNer weights "wasted human potential from FB" more than "benefit of disaster reporting from FB" (which I also agree with - however "benefit of disaster reporting" almost certainly outweighs "detriment from nebulous analytics firm scandal").

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by mindslight on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:41PM (#18611718)
> If we want to maximize pleasure and minimize suffering, the units are still the same in both opposing points you mentioned - it is just really, really hard to measure.

It's not hard - it's impossible. Even we fully agree on a specific metric, a situation still has to be weighed against possible alternatives and integrated on timescales longer than our lives. A very basic example of this is a company optimizing for "profits", but they're actually optimizing for short term profits at the expense of going out of business two years later. The future is unknowable in the same exact sense that every NP-hard problem is. Heuristics are the only way to tackle this.

> coming up with qualitative points and weighting them in a good-faith-but-ultimately-arbitrary-manner is good enough, and something that everyone does constantly

Of course, which is why I'm referring to "Faceboot" even while recognizing that people get utility out of it. I just think that focusing on arbitrary pairs of specific facets is already headed down the path of madness, which is why I stated my initial critique in terms of basic principles.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by drewblaisdell on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @02:53PM (#18611817)
> Heuristics are the only way to tackle this.

Yes. This is why every single comment of mine in this thread recommends a specific heuristic with which to tackle this exact problem.

Re:Facebook's seized files published by MPs by PavlovsCat on Wednesday December 05, 2018 @03:06PM (#18611931)
The heuristic is the sum of what individuals are willing to put up with or not -- not something you can calculate and then just prescribe for everybody.