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Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nanny on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @11:07PM (#18558014)
>You see this in most heavily regulated markets.

Except airlines were heavily deregulated in 1978. In my mind it's also "clear why we have reached this point", except that I've come to the opposite conclusion that you have.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by pdonis on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @11:42PM (#18558154)
> airlines were heavily deregulated in 1978.

With regard to the routes they could fly and the prices they could charge, yes. But they were never de-regulated with regard to the safety requirements they had to meet or the qualifications their pilots and crew and maintenance workers have to have. Those regulations have, if anything, gotten more stringent over time. And those regulations pose a huge barrier to entry for new competitors, and favor large airlines over small ones because a large airline can more easily absorb the costs of compliance.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by repsilat on Thursday November 29, 2018 @01:06AM (#18558419)
More to the point, foreign carriers are literally not allowed to fly US domestic routes. Plenty of international competition would love to (and foreign governments might even subsidise those flights!) but trade protection keeps them out.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:45AM (#18558730)
It's more than just trade protection, it's a matter of national security. US airlines are legally subject to having their aircraft commandeered to transport military personnel in wartime. It wouldn't be feasible to enforce that requirement on foreign airlines.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by danaris on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:31AM (#18561414)
...I don't see that as being nearly as big of a (potential) national security risk as, say, a plane from a country with much lower national standards being flown into a major hub and either accidentally or maliciously crashing into populated areas.

I'm honestly not sure how "we can't legally commandeer the plane to transport military personnel in wartime" qualifies as a national security issue. Seems more like a logistical issue in that unlikely event.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @12:02PM (#18561686)
Logistical issues are national security issues. It's an insurance policy against the possibility of another large-scale war involving immediate full mobilization. Fortunately we haven't really had a war like that since WWII but the risk is still there.

Safety and security issues are handled separately. Some foreign airlines are banned from landing at any US airport because they're not trusted.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by heavenlyblue on Thursday November 29, 2018 @04:46PM (#18564374)
What stops you, in the event of a war, to only use the planes from domestic carriers for military purposes?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:24PM (#18566650)
The intent of the policy is to maximize the number of airliners available from domestic carriers. They don't want domestic carriers to be driven out of business by foreign competitors.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by maxxxxx on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:12AM (#18560228)
Why not?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by edanm on Thursday November 29, 2018 @03:06AM (#18558794)
Also, there is no real market for airline tickets, because you can't, as a consumer, decide to resell them. So their prices are often set in very bizarre ways (leading to prices jumping around minute to minute by crazy algorithms.) I think a big part of this situation is for security purposes.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by selestify on Friday November 30, 2018 @02:49AM (#18567470)
Why would preventing reselling of airline tickets promote security?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by edanm on Friday November 30, 2018 @06:48AM (#18568407)
I think the idea is that tickets are tied to a real person's identity (via their passport number), you can't sell to somebody else, who might be a threat, because the airline won't let them on. Compare to, say, a car, where no one verifies that you aren't selling your car to someone without a license (or that intends to commit a terror attack, say).
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by apexalpha on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:03AM (#18560174)
>And those regulations pose a huge barrier to entry for new competitors, and favor large airlines over small ones because a large airline can more easily absorb the costs of compliance.

Have you seen the EU airline market? It's _insanely_ competitive with dozens of airlines flying everywhere, all with rigorous safety standards.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by thatfrenchguy on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @11:51PM (#18558189)
Yes but none of us want to die.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by AnthonyMouse on Thursday November 29, 2018 @01:25AM (#18558483)
> Yes but none of us want to die.

This is the problematic false dichotomy. If you give someone a choice between "this specific set of onerous, expensive, competition-destroying regulations" or "you will be killed", they make the obvious choice.

But those aren't the only options. Existing regulations are poorly optimized. It would be possible to save the same number of lives -- more lives -- by doing more work to improve the benefit:burden ratio of regulations.

The problem is that people aren't interested in this. It's detail-oriented work that doesn't make for good sound bites, so the beneficiaries (the general public) aren't organized enough to know how to ask for it, and the organized incumbents don't want it because it would result in a larger number of viable competitors.

And it's too easy for incumbents to make the sound bites go the other way, by pretending that not spending a billion dollars to save one life is irresponsible, even though the same billion dollars could save more than a thousand lives if saved here and used beneficially somewhere else.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:47AM (#18558736)
Could you give us an example of a specific FAA or NTSB regulation which has a suboptimal benefit:burden ratio?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by AnthonyMouse on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:31PM (#18566121)
> Could you give us an example of a specific FAA or NTSB regulation which has a suboptimal benefit:burden ratio?

Sure. The air traffic control system is 20th century technology that has air traffic controllers doing things manually that could be done by computers. A better automated system would have the same or better safety while requiring significantly less labor.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @11:22PM (#18566642)
The FAA has been actively working to modernise the air traffic control system for decades. It's a hard problem. I fail to see how that addresses the point?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 30, 2018 @12:02PM (#18570459)
The point is that it's a hard problem whose solution yields large returns, but we're expending resources to solve it at a rate that takes decades to produce the solution.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by pdonis on Thursday November 29, 2018 @12:02AM (#18558230)
That's true. I'm not saying the safety regulations are a bad idea. I'm just saying that they have the side effect of giving the advantage to large airlines and posing a barrier to entry for new competitors. (And that, since they are indeed regulations and have gotten more stringent over time, it is a mistake to think of the airline industry as being "deregulated" in the sense of the term "regulation" that is being used in this discussion.)
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by aidenn0 on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:07AM (#18558612)
Driving is far less safe than flying, but people choose to drive all the time.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by ekianjo on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:35AM (#18558693)
Yes, and even after 9/11 there is clear data showing that people stopped flying en masse and took the wheel instead, resulting in increased overall death count.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/05/september-11-r...

> However, Professor Gerd Gigerenzer, a German academic specialising in risk, has estimated that an extra 1,595 Americans died in car accidents in the year after the attacks – indirect victims of the tragedy.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by maxxxxx on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:16AM (#18560257)
With driving people think they are in control and that safety is determined by their own skills. When you sit in a plane you are at the mercy of the airline and the pilot. I would more compare it to buying a car. And there are a lot of safety regulations on cars. When you buy a car you know that the steering or brakes won't fail randomly.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by conanbatt on Thursday November 29, 2018 @12:50AM (#18558384)
Depends on the price.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by mbrodersen on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:06PM (#18566000)
So are you suggesting that the airlines should be allowed to use pilots that are less qualified to fly, and maintenance crew that is less qualified to maintain aircraft? Seriously?
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by Ar-Curunir on Thursday November 29, 2018 @01:44AM (#18558538)
And more safety is a bad thing... how?

Should the airline industry become more like the software eng industry, which has had such great success in producing solid and safe products?

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by ekianjo on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:42AM (#18558721)
Safety comes at a cost. If you want to makes planes ultimately safe, you would not allow them to fly, period. Just like NASA has now an objective of "safe flights" and basically does not send humans in space anymore because they can't guarantee zero fatality.

Safety is not a binary variable: it's a trade-off vs economical factors and the cost of each ticket. Since some people have to fly anyway, this means decreased spending in other areas of the economy.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:52AM (#18558748)
But planes are ultimately safe, to the extent that the major US airlines often go a whole year with zero passenger deaths. And this safety doesn't even cost more; it's actually cheaper than the alternative when you net out all the costs.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by mattbessey on Thursday November 29, 2018 @05:37AM (#18559283)
> this safety doesn't even cost more; it's actually cheaper than the alternative when you net out all the costs.

You can't just drop an argument destroying bomb like this with no citation

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by dv_dt on Thursday November 29, 2018 @01:19AM (#18558464)
They've become more stringent over time because there are more flights now, and had they not become more stringent, then we would have daily crashes and fewer people would be willing to fly.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by ekianjo on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:39AM (#18558706)
> and had they not become more stringent, then we would have daily crashes and fewer people would be willing to fly.

Not sure you can make such a claim. There are other industries where standards and safety practices improve over time without the need of strong regulatory leadership. Case in point: occupational injuries have been decreasing over time across the board:

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/osh_11082018.pdf

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by nradov on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:55AM (#18558755)
Occupational injuries have been decreasing over time largely due to deindustrialization. There just aren't as many people working in factories and mines any more.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by maxxxxx on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:20AM (#18560282)
And the people working in factories and mines are protected by regulation. The owners didn't improve safety voluntarily.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by JoeAltmaier on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:21AM (#18560288)
Which are routinely, famously flaunted by both management and labor in mining and manufacturing to increase output and thereby pay/profit.

I'd favor mechanization over 'rational human' for sure.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by majewsky on Thursday November 29, 2018 @06:28AM (#18559464)
Also, OSHA was enacted in 1970.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by dv_dt on Thursday November 29, 2018 @12:53PM (#18562126)
Aviation has always been a mix of government regulation and industry self-interest that has worked better than all-regulation or no-regulation alone.

https://www.slideserve.com/wauna/we-need-to-continuously-imp...

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by maxxxxx on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:18AM (#18560273)
There are a ton of regulations for dangerous workplaces. Without them we would still see people get killed by machines in factories or poisoned by vapors.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by JoeAltmaier on Thursday November 29, 2018 @09:27AM (#18560329)
Except, in the west anyway, almost nobody is working in factories any more.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by maxxxxx on Thursday November 29, 2018 @10:01AM (#18560621)
There are a lot of people working in factories, construction, mines, agriculture and others.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by JoeAltmaier on Thursday November 29, 2018 @10:04AM (#18560654)
Yes, but as a total of America its groiwng vanishingly smaller. Automation.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by afjl on Wednesday November 28, 2018 @11:44PM (#18558163)
In my opinion, both lead to monopolies and oligopolies.

Ekianjo is right, in the sense that entities with lots of capital will become rent-seeking entities in over-regulated/mis-regulated markets because of very high barriers to entry. Examples include ISP's and insurance markets.

You are also right, in the sense that entities will rush to control a heavily de-regulated market. To that end, companies with lots of capital can afford to outspend or acquire their undersized competition. Examples include Air-transit post-1978 and the Internet 2.0.

There isn't one single legislation that led us here and there is no one-size-fits-all solution that can solve each monopoly. We have to evaluate each industry and each market on its own to determine how the state would break the oligopoly.

Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by larl on Thursday November 29, 2018 @12:29AM (#18558304)
But that requires political will, and with current political funding and party platforms, that's basically a non-starter.
Re:Competition Is Dying, and Taking Capitalism with It? by ekianjo on Thursday November 29, 2018 @02:46AM (#18558734)
That's also the problem of our current political systems which favor party lines instead of individual thinking. It's very inefficient to drive reforms.