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Re:The “bicameral mind” 30 years on: A reappraisal of Jaynes... by wpietri on Sunday November 25, 2018 @09:08AM (#18526912)
This point is one I've chewed on some:

> Therefore, if people educated in the right way could hear voices I'd expect there still to be groups of people (members of some religious sect perhaps) who hear voices.

My (entirely made up) theory here is that it's mediated through stress and exhaustion. Even today there's something called "brief psychotic disorder" where during a period of extreme stress somebody can experience delusions, hallucinations, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brief_psychotic_disorder

There are also a variety of religious traditions where modern people will hear the voice of god, enter trance states, channel spirits, etc. And we all know that sleep deprivation can produce all sorts of mental effects.

Given that civilization is mainly marked by improvements in life quality over time, it seems reasonable that the further back we go, the rougher people have it. So figure less sleep, worse nutrition, more desperation, more trauma, both direct and through the frequent death of children, friends, family.

So it seems reasonable to me that early on in civilization people were on average pretty bonkers. And social creatures that we are, that we'd be jointly bonkers; if our parents and siblings and and neighbors experience parts of themselves as the voice of particular gods, we would be likely to as well.

As our lives over generations get slowly better, the stress level drops. So too does the level of biologically driven psychosis. Which undermines the cultural elements that support and channel it, which might collapse relatively suddenly. (A reasonable modern parallel might be the European collapse in religious belief over recent generations.)

All pure speculation, of course. Jaynes's theory is certainly fun to think about, but we would have a hard time getting real experiments past an IRB.

Re:The “bicameral mind” 30 years on: A reappraisal of Jaynes... by sandinmytea on Sunday November 25, 2018 @12:54PM (#18527876)
For anyone reading this above comment, I believe wpietri has the gist of it.

To form a conception of this otherwise impossible to conceive-of social/psychological dynamic, one has to imagine people and civilization which has no reverse focus on the self whatsoever. There would be no collectively determined subjective language to refer to one another and to oneself. For example, I could say "NAME1 verbed NAME2!" and "NAME3 verbed NAME1!" Even when NAME3 is "myself" remember that there is no "myself." That is to say "I verbed NAME1" would not be a statement. NAME3 would be "me" without there being a concept of "me" whatsoever.

To make matters even more difficult, the "past tense" would be very shaky or even non existent without attributing an almost ritualistic re-occurrence to the action, and in addition to that, a driving force which was the "god" or spirit equivalent of that force. In Jayne's theory, the phase of "bicameralism" was a middle phase that allowed for hydraulic agricultural civilization without something that could be described as "literacy of the self."

To express day-to-day behavior, there would be no conceptual active participants to describe AT ALL. Instead, an external force would be used to explain most behaviors - namely gods, ancestors, what have you - who ever's voice would be identified with the behavior. The "hearing voices" part is both real and figurative, as it would be necessary without that neurological self having existed.

It came into existence, according to Jaynes, right along with the language "I" "myself" "you" and so on, and a careful reading of antique civilization's language would help one to notice that there truly was no such language structure to describe the self until that concept formed civilization-wide. Until then, there was no "it" except that which was attributed to a very real pantheon of voices and compulsions which moved people to act.

[edited for clarity]

Re:The “bicameral mind” 30 years on: A reappraisal of Jaynes... by jnbiche on Sunday November 25, 2018 @02:39PM (#18528548)
> There would be no collectively determined subjective language to refer to one another and to oneself.

Well said.

If it seems unlikely to anyone that society could transition to the state described to one where they have a full conception of self, just think of all the societies that didn't have any concept of zero. Yet they now use zero in their everyday life.

Like zero, self is a concept that now seems hard to imagine not having. Yet we know for a fact that societies at one time had no idea of zero.