News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Building your color palette by weinzierl on Saturday November 10, 2018 @11:12AM (#18421910)
> Ever used one of those fancy color palette generators? You know, the ones where you pick a starting color, tweak some options that probably include some musical jargon like "triad" or "major fourth", and are then bestowed the five perfect color swatches you should use to build your website?

> This calculated and scientific approach to picking the perfect color scheme is extremely seductive, but not very useful.

Just recently I wondered if there is any scientific basis behind these approaches. I skimmed all research papers that I could find but not a single one of them provided serious data based support. All justification for these methods I found were historical, i. e. artists used color wheels and different methods of color selection on the wheels for a long time.

My conclusion so far is: There is no science what so ever behind these color palette generators.

I only spent about a day on this research and I'm not an expert, so if anyone has some pointers to serious research in that direction I'd be happy to know.

Re:Building your color palette by rriepe on Saturday November 10, 2018 @01:43PM (#18422760)
I've made one so maybe I can help (http://strapless.io/)

It's only really scientific insofar as it's based on a model. We basically make a big cube with R,G,B on its sides instead of X,Y,Z. Different approaches will then "smush" that cube to try to better match how humans perceive colors. Those different smushes will usually have some scientific thinking behind them (mine is based on... historical justifications, good post here btw). Then we move around the cube to find colors.

When I get a color, I try to match the luma too. Luma is itself a weird value, which tries to work through the relative perceptual brightness differences in colors.

The relative perceptual brightness difference is, as far as I can tell, the thing that really makes a color look "wrong" in a color scheme. I didn't solve that with problem with Strapless, but instead relied on whomever figured out luma. I think if you looked into how luma works you'd find the current best scientific model for whether two colors "fit" together.

I'd agree that color-generating isn't a science (definitely more of an art) but any good approach will have a bunch of underlying science and math.

Re:Building your color palette by davidivadavid on Saturday November 10, 2018 @11:36AM (#18422057)
Whether you see it as having science behind it or not really depends on what problem you're considering.

There are some interesting in-depth articles about how people build those palettes and ramps that you might find interesting:

https://uxplanet.org/designing-systematic-colors-b5d2605b15c

https://design.lyft.com/re-approaching-color-9e604ba22c88

Re:Building your color palette by weinzierl on Saturday November 10, 2018 @12:03PM (#18422187)
Thanks for the links, I skimmed the articles, they are very interesting and I will certainly read them later. They are not what I'm looking for, however.

What I'm looking for are empiric, preferably cross-cultural, studies on color harmony. I'm interested in work similar to what has been done for Unique Hues and Focal Colors but for combinations of two or more colors and for the notion whether people find these combinations pleasing, neutral or displeasing. I wouldn't be surprised too much if we couldn't find universal pleasing combinations but I'm surprised that apparently no one has done these type of studies.

Re:Building your color palette by chazzyluc on Saturday November 10, 2018 @12:37PM (#18422369)
May not be exactly what you want but you could look into the World Color Survey:

http://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/wcs/

https://youtu.be/gMqZR3pqMjg

Re:Building your color palette by guitarbill on Saturday November 10, 2018 @12:48PM (#18422433)
I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, and I think many colour pickers wanted to do the right thing.

HSL or HSV was a step up from RGB, so it made sense to use it to derive other colours quickly. Because if you're an underpaid freelance developer, the primary colour is usually set by the client, but they usually son't have a full colour scheme. Using a colour wheel based tool gave good enough results fast.

Not only are perceptual uniform models like CIE Lab*, and the derived CIELCh or CIEHLC mindbending to understand and code, but monitor colour gamuts sucked, and so it was overkill.

So is it scientific? If what you wanted was an easy way to derive a number of colours, sort of. If you need them to "look good", well that's art, not science. So ultimately, IDK what answer you're looking for. Colour wheels have always just been a nice way to visualise hue.

Re:Building your color palette by weinzierl on Saturday November 10, 2018 @02:19PM (#18422967)
> If you need them to "look good", well that's art, not science.

I'm not so much interested in "look good" but in "look pleasing or harmonious together" and I think that's a question science might have an answer to.

It's no coincidence that the palette generators borrow musical jargon. In music the definitions of minor second and perfect octave are completely uncontroversial. That these two intervals have different musical qualities, we call them dissonance and consonance, is uncontroversial too. Sure, some cultures use dissonant intervals heavily in their music but they still recognize the different qualities. Most importantly there has been a ton of research in this field.

Contrast this with the state of the art in color science: When it comes to color harmony there is not even a single universal definition of opposite or complementary. Look at the Wikipedia article about that topic [1]. It mixes up three completely separate topics:

1. Colors that when mixed together give a neutral hue

2. Colors that are opposite of each other on some wheel

3. Colors that supposedly have a certain effect, like contrast or harmony, when perceived next to each other

Color wheels are a dime a dozen. There is no shortage of claims that this and that color go well together but there doesn't seem to be any serious research.

I wonder if that is just my impression because it's not my field, or if maybe color science really is just not developed enough to tackle these kind of questions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complementary_colors

Re:Building your color palette by jpfed on Sunday November 11, 2018 @02:29AM (#18425373)
>I wonder if that is just my impression because it's not my field, or if maybe color science really is just not developed enough to tackle these kind of questions.

I have wondered the same thing ( https://ask.metafilter.com/245014/Help-me-understand-color-t... ) and haven't found anything.

I've had some subsequent thoughts. We know that there is a characteristic of the human perception of scenes called "color constancy". That is that our visual perceptual abilities are surprisingly robust to changes in the character of light sources. We may be aware of the light source color, but we easily "factor it out" of what we see of the objects in the scene. It is as if color constancy takes the distribution of colors and applies some transformation to standardize that distribution.

My guess is that the mechanisms underlying color constancy contribute to the aesthetic feel of the scene. If a scene's colors lie along a single line (e.g. a grayscale image), there is a sort of cramped or confined feeling (at least, I experience this), as if the color constancy mechanism is attempting to make a gaussian sphere* out of the colors but there's not enough variance to make it work.

At the same time, if you make a palette out of the corners of the RGB cube, there's an unusually high amount of variance. The image might be very vivid but it gives me an impression of excessive busy-ness or energy. The sphere has spikes now!

Maybe harmonious color schemes are those in which the color constancy mechanism doesn't have to do too much work to make the color distribution into a standard shape... maybe. I don't have any evidence or anything.

I don't think the "standard" distribution of colors that would feel neutral is actually going to be a sphere, but it's not going to be perfectly flat and it's not going to be a straight line. It is possible to visualize the color histograms of images as 3d point clouds to get some sense of what feeling is evoked by different color distributions (e.g. http://opensource.graphics/visualizing-the-3d-point-cloud-of... )

Re:Building your color palette by guitarbill on Sunday November 11, 2018 @01:05PM (#18427642)
> we call them dissonance and consonance, is uncontroversial too

haha, right... but only for western music. compare it to e.g. Gamelan or throat/overtone singing. babies to have some concept of pitch, but mostly what sounds good is very much cultural and not "scientific" at all (good post on this: https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/11/12/the-emotional...)

Re:Building your color palette by clarry on Saturday November 10, 2018 @03:56PM (#18423455)
> Not only are perceptual uniform models like CIE Lab*, and the derived CIELCh or CIEHLC mindbending to understand and code

Conversion from srgb to lab and back (through xyz) is a handful of functions, all under a dozen lines of javascript. Lab to lch and back are a pair of functions, about two lines of code each.

If you're implementing a user interface with sliders, you might also want to clamp the values to avoid producing out of gamut colours. The weird shape is probably the hardest thing to understand (user point of view), but the controls remain very intuitive.

Re:Building your color palette by guitarbill on Sunday November 11, 2018 @01:12PM (#18427670)
I should have phrased it better. Teenage me struggled, but I haven't attempted it since. Having said that, HSL/HSV worked well enough, and monitors now have better colour accuracy and wider colour gamut. Back then, people were still using "web-safe" colours.
Re:Building your color palette by yread on Saturday November 10, 2018 @11:35AM (#18422051)
That might be true but this article basically says you have to rely on your eyes. You might as well get the designer to do everything. We programmers should also publish articles like this: dont even bother with Excel formulas you need a programmer
Re:Building your color palette by weinzierl on Saturday November 10, 2018 @11:47AM (#18422109)
I didn't want to criticize. My argument was meant to support the thesis that the palette generators are useless. They are not only useless from the designers point of view stated in the article but also from a scientific view.

> You might as well get the designer to do everything. We programmers should also publish articles like this: dont even bother with Excel formulas you need a programmer

I couldn't agree more.

Re:Building your color palette by jacobolus on Saturday November 10, 2018 @02:19PM (#18422970)
> Just recently I wondered if there is any scientific basis behind these approaches.

No, not really. It’s mostly 17th–19th century pseudoscience, propagated by generations of uncritical art teachers. (Note: not all art teachers; some are amazing.)

Complementary colors (which mix to neutral when you e.g. paint two sides of a top with them and spin it) are a thing though.

Re:Building your color palette by pfranz on Saturday November 10, 2018 @04:02PM (#18423487)
Most of those generators are showing you sets of colors that all compliment each other. When you're designing an interface you have different priorities, you need a more of a fill and accent colors, as well as other colors that give contextual clues (like confirmations or warnings).

I think both concepts are useful, but this article is a way better approach.

Re:Building your color palette by sandworm101 on Saturday November 10, 2018 @11:25AM (#18421996)
Google how the human eye works. The rods and cones. Colour and harmony between colours is rooted in our biology. Your iphone screen looks very unnatural, unattractive, to a dog or a goose. They see very different colours than we.

Our affinity to bright red is tied to how we used it to identify ripe fruit. Notifications, things they want you to click/grab/poke work best in red. You dont see many brown buttons on websites. We dont like touching brown the way we do red.