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Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by jcrawfordor on Sunday October 28, 2018 @12:34PM (#18321380)
My county of over 600k people has a Bureau of Elections staff of five, and none of them are really technical people, they just do basic work on the machines and train the temp staff hired for elections. They rely on a contractor to handle just about every aspect of the technology, including the pollbook system, and that company is a larger operation but still the kind of operation where I've heard the elections staff getting on the phone with them to have them restart a service that had gone sluggish. Some amount of support is provided by the secretary of state, but the SoS elections office is also very small, and even the state's department of IT doesn't have a meaningful security department.

I honestly think that the election system in the United States is simply too decentralized. Counties, even larger ones like mine, struggle to afford to hire a staff or retain contractors that have any kind of serious security expertise - or even expertise in reliable services. The federal elections commission was created to address some of these problems by providing centralized resources to states and counties, but it hasn't gone nearly far enough in my opinion. I have a had time imagining a way to make a serious improvement here without moving just about the entire platform for voting systems under the federal government.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by ISL on Sunday October 28, 2018 @01:15PM (#18321642)
The decentralization of the United States is, in my opinion, a feature, not a bug.

The upside inherent in fifty parallel and bespoke experiments in government is worth the extra complexity and cost. Ideas are tried out, and can bubble outward and upward if they work. Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country.

Furthermore, having state and local control over elections has a direct impact on legitimacy. I don't have to believe that someone in Washington DC is doing things right. Instead, I can interact directly with our state's secretary of state and our local county elections office.

Decentralization with heterogeneous procedures makes election compromise a much greater logistical challenge for any nefarious actor. It is probably a lot easier to spend money on lobbying.

Edit: Finally -- if you want your local/state elections infrastructure to have more resources, your voice and your vote are your tools.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by everdev on Sunday October 28, 2018 @01:34PM (#18321770)
In principle, yes. In practice, a halted recount in FL in 2000 affected who represented 100% of Americans as President.

The number of true "toss up" states is unfortunately fairly small.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by stephengillie on Sunday October 28, 2018 @01:49PM (#18321848)
> Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country.

If only populations were so evenly distributed. 1/2 of Americans live east of the Mississippi, on 1/3 of the Continental US, and about 1/2 of the rest live on the West Coast. The mideastern states have very few residents.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by Armisael16 on Sunday October 28, 2018 @06:55PM (#18323722)
What are the mideastern states?

If you mean the Midwest then I regret to inform you that Illinois, Ohio, and Michigan are all in the top 10 most populous states.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by stephengillie on Sunday October 28, 2018 @07:55PM (#18323978)
Yes, those 3 Mideastern states are east of the Mississippi.

They're in the middle of the continent, and east of my state, so they are mideast to me. Not to be confused with Arabia, east Mediterranean, and Persian gulf.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by anigbrowl on Sunday October 28, 2018 @02:14PM (#18321958)
The upside inherent in fifty parallel and bespoke experiments in government is worth the extra complexity and cost. Ideas are tried out, and can bubble outward and upward if they work. Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country.

Don't agree. Just look at the history of Alec to see how local and regional governments are easily captured by self-serving actors. These are nice sentiments but the underlying assumptions are painfully naive.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by notable_user on Sunday October 28, 2018 @05:50PM (#18323441)
Gay marriage rights and now weed legalization are two recent examples of policy that I don’t think would have been possible in America (at least for a long time) without decentralized government. People got used to the idea in some more progressive states and it’s bubbling outward.

Many states experiment with election law as well. California with top two primaries. It’s yet to be seen how that will play out, but we likely wouldn’t try on a national stage.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by drb91 on Sunday October 28, 2018 @07:37PM (#18323902)
This doesn’t imply that elections themselves should be run in a decentralized manner.
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by marmaduke on Sunday October 28, 2018 @01:25PM (#18321713)
Decentralization may make targeted attacks easier compared to similar investment in a centralized equivalent (would be my guess at the argument here)
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by drb91 on Sunday October 28, 2018 @07:36PM (#18323894)
> Bad ideas directly impact only ~2% of the country.

How do you figure? It could easily be 100%.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by r00fus on Sunday October 28, 2018 @02:13PM (#18321956)
I'm almost in agreement... I'd rather have centralized and constantly updated/audited standards which are mandated for all national level elections, and are enforced rigorously with federally funded programs.

The actual implementation of how these standards are met should be left to the states. Updating the standards to eliminate exploits and loopholes would minimize gaming of the system.

Ideally I also feel that somehow the entire nation should be incented to increase voting %. Just not sure how to do that though without creating unforeseen consequences.

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by bo1024 on Sunday October 28, 2018 @03:39PM (#18322610)
I agree to some extent, but paper ballots seem to solve a lot of these expertise problems (in addition to all the security and reliability ones).
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by jcrawfordor on Tuesday October 30, 2018 @09:43PM (#18342732)
Counties cannot afford to hand-tally paper ballots for the same reasons they can't afford to hire security expertise.
[dead]
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by prolikewh0a on Sunday October 28, 2018 @04:25PM (#18322933)
>Why is it so taboo to talk about the fact that a significant portion of the political ruling class is eager to actively subvert democracy, no matter what technical solutions are available?

I get called a conspiracy nut for talking about this. Neither Republicans or Democrats really give even the slightest of care towards election integrity. What have the Republicans or Democrats done to actively try to fix anything? Republicans prefer to not talk about it at all, Democrats love to talk about how they're for election integrity but do nothing about it. Democrats even conveniently purged voters in Brooklyn just in time for Bernie vs Hillary primary and were sued for it [1].

Almost none of the ruling class cares. Only maybe 3 or 4 senators, congress, actually care. If you let the people actually vote and participate in Democracy, those people might stop being part of the ruling class and money may actually start trickling down.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/new-york-city-boa...

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by Animats on Sunday October 28, 2018 @05:16PM (#18323249)
Unfortunately, yes. Read. "What Went Wrong in Ohio" [2005], from House Judiciary Committee staff.[1] Among other things, the CEO of Diebold Election Systems was Ohio state Republican chair.[2] The security of voting machines remains very weak.[3]

"Our concerns are exacerbated by the fact that there are very few companies who manufacture and operate voting machines, and they tend to be controlled by executives who donate largely, if not exclusively, to the Republican Party and Republican candidates."

"Diebold’s Express Poll 5000 machines were even easier to crack, thanks to having an easily accessible memory card, which you could swap out while voting, containing supervisor passwords in plain text."

"The "security" of these WINvote machines is so bad. Running WinXP, autorun enabled and hard-coded WEP wifi password."

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20050203193203/https://www.house... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_O%27Dell [3] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/13/defcon_election_vot...

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by colemannugent on Sunday October 28, 2018 @04:07PM (#18322827)
>It is democracy itself they [The Republican Party] are opposed to, and will continue to amass power until bloodshed forces change.

So in your opinion, the solution to Republicans subverting democracy isn't well considered democratic action, but rather bloodshed? That seems rather anti-democratic.

>Proposing technical solutions assumes all players wish for fair elections. This is not the case.

So you can't think of any technical solutions that assume bad intentions on behalf of most of the involved actors? What about the protocol your browser used to send your comment to the servers that run this forum?

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by TheOtherHobbes on Sunday October 28, 2018 @04:22PM (#18322922)
I don't see the previous comment as recommending bloodshed.

I do see it warning that it's a possible outcome.

As for technical solutions - paper ballots make this a solved problem, albeit a labour-intensive one. (How much effort is democracy worth?)

The idea that vote counting contracts should ever have been be handed to contractors *who fund specific political parties and have been indicted for bribery and other criminal acts" is almost surreal in its aggressive disdain for verifiable electoral fairness.

https://columbusfreepress.com/article/diebold-indicted-its-s...

https://www.accesswire.com/471912/Voting-Technology-Companie...

Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by adjkant on Sunday October 28, 2018 @04:21PM (#18322912)
I'm not in agreement about violence being the answer, but when the democracy has already been subverted, democratic action is very unlikely to be possible to fix it. It's then a populist power struggle that usually leads to violence. No one in the US government these days actually does much more than lip service to the idea of democracy, and we have long been going away from direct democracy for quite some time. The regularity that public opinion mismatches policy actions is staggering, and the amount of pressure of disagreement it takes to stop an unpopular policy is crazy.
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by mikeash on Sunday October 28, 2018 @07:24PM (#18323850)
JFK put it simply: “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.”
Re:US election system reveals frightening vulnerabilities at... by tracker1 on Sunday October 28, 2018 @07:55PM (#18323981)
Come on... it's not just Republicans... just look at voter fraud in general, there's plenty all around. Including dead and never-existed people voting. And I'm not even talking about the 1900's, I'm talking in every election cycle, including current.