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Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:07PM (#18285815)
Your definition makes no sense. "We should kill people from country X" isn't hate speech by your definition - it doesn't imply anyone is any less human than anyone else.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by OmarIsmail on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:12PM (#18285893)
"should kill people" = "those people aren't deserving to live" = 1) either all humans are not deserving to live or 2) those specific humans are not deserving to live = if 2) country X are being dehumanized.

if 1) do you consider yourself a human? A) yes, then why haven't you killed yourself? Since you haven't you think you're more deserving of life relative to everyone else and therefore are dehumanizing everyone but yourself, if 2) ok, you've publicly proclaimed that you don't think you're human which then let me add a second rule. Only humans have right to speech.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by xtreme on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:19PM (#18285961)
According to this interpretation, arguments supporting capital punishment is hate speech and should be banned.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by chroma on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:05PM (#18286399)
These interpretations can also be flipped around. One could argue that not supporting capital punishment dehumanizes murder victims and their families. Then some tough on crime politician gets elected and speech against capital punishment is banned.

Remember that whenever you create a tool to silence people, you are building a weapon that can be used against yourself. As recent elections have shown, sane politicians aren't always in power. The only long term solution is to build a system that works even when your enemies are in charge.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by OmarIsmail on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:23PM (#18286006)
I'm ok with that.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:30PM (#18286079)
Then you have such an extremely non-mainstream definition of hate speech that it was borderline intellectually dishonest of you not to come out with that example from the beginning.

Even in Europe, which has much stricter bans on hate speech and xenophobia than the US does, and where capital punishment is banned, claiming capital punishment should be unbanned is legal.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:15PM (#18285936)
> if 1) do you consider yourself a human? A) yes, then why haven't you killed yourself? Since you haven't you think you're more deserving of life relative to everyone else and therefore are dehumanizing everyone but yourself,

This is circular reasoning. If we've already established that I might not think all humans deserve to live, you can't claim that thinking I deserve to live means I think I'm more human than everyone else.

It's perfectly possible to think someone deserves to live less than I do while still thinking they're human.

Such tortured logic is hardly "direct line implicit", which is exactly why your definition doesn't work.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by trolleyhacker on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:44PM (#18286753)
If we follow this reasoning, a statement like "Nazis deserve to die." would be hate speech.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:14PM (#18285913)
It does indeed imply just that. You're abstracting the impulse to eliminate other groups away from that fact that it comes from a perspective of supremacy: the idea that your type of human is more deserving of existing than a foreign human.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:17PM (#18285947)
Yes, but thinking you deserve to exist more than someone else has nothing to do with whether you think they're human.

My girlfriend's dog is very sweet and loyal. I think it deserves to exist more than a (human) child molester does. This doesn't mean I think dogs are human.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:27PM (#18286054)
You're defining dehumanization biologically, when in usage the term is overloaded with another definition that refers to depriving others of dignity, individuality, and other positive human qualities.

To say that another doesn't deserve to be recognized with those positive human qualities is at the root of saying that they don't deserve to exist.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:29PM (#18286073)
If you're defining it like that then it's just as vague and subjective as "hate speech" is, so we haven't made any progress with this definition.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:44PM (#18286201)
You're being confronted with a truth about the clear definition of hate speech, and you're resisting moving forward because you intuitively sense the contradiction that your own belief might pose to that. This is where you need to be brave and get past that.
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:58PM (#18286348)
Huh? That's totally out of left field and not even related to the discussion we were having. How can you possibly have any idea what my motives are for this discussion or what my own beliefs are about anything else?
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:16PM (#18286503)
We're discussing the clear and defined understanding of what hate speech is.

You lost the thread of the conversation the moment someone confronted your belief that it doesn't have a clear definition.

The reason you lost the thread is because you're struggling with the internal contradiction of your belief.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @03:44PM (#18286748)
So, (if the definition is so clear) do you think claiming capital punishment should be legal is hate speech, as the person I was originally replying to has claimed elsewhere in this subthread?
Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:15PM (#18287018)
In a vacuum, I would not say that's hate speech. But there are complexities in the advocacy for capital punishment in the current context of the US's criminal justice system.

Our carceral system is widely recognized to be deeply racist in practice and in philosophy. This being the case, it's not an unbelievable stretch to say that when someone holds a belief in capital punishment, there is a good chance they also have parallel beliefs that rationalize capital punishment as a functional part of that racist system.

In that case, such advocacy is part of their rhetorical framework of hate speech. The clarity of the definition of hate speech gives us to see the context of that.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:20PM (#18287087)
Who said anything about the US?

Let's imagine you work at a social media company. You see the comment: "capital punishment should be legal". You don't know anything about the carceral system of the jurisdiction the commenter lives in.

Do you remove the comment for being hate speech, or not?

But the main point is that since the other commenter reached the conclusion that this would be hate speech, and you reached the conclusion that it might be but not necessarily, it follows that the definition he or she proposed is not clear.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by snackbugs on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:57PM (#18287416)
Remove it or not based on your company's rules and values.

I don't know how to make this any more explicit. Hate speech having a clear and defined concept (which both you and that other commenter can research on your own) gives us a way to define whether or not the comment and context is harmful or not. I'm not going to hold your hand here, you need to read about it.

Re:Alex Stamos: Asking tech companies to police hate speech ... by umanwizard on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:01PM (#18287446)
Okay, let's back up because I think you are misreading me.

I am not discussing whether or not hate speech is clearly defined. I was discussing whether "Speech that explicitly or direct line implicitly dehumanizes anyone" is a useful definition. Do you think that's a useful definition, or not?

If that wasn't the point you were arguing against, then we're going nowhere.