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Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by avip on Monday October 22, 2018 @04:58PM (#18278445)
This is where JS shines (we all have browsers). I think dedicating 10 minutes to ensure `docker run --rm -it -v $PWD:/srv python bash` should suffice, without digging into what it does.
Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by nonce725 on Monday October 22, 2018 @06:58PM (#18279321)
As a beginner, I have no idea what docker is.

This is one of the most frustrating parts of learning ANY language. The assumed knowledge and supposed "here's a quick start guide" actually starts on step 8.

Don't assume the beginner knows what docker is.

Don't assume the beginner knows what a shell is.

I've tried to learn 3-4 languages or frameworks over the years, and I have only a vague idea of how to move between directories in the command prompt. Nevermind where I should download or extract files.

I've found people's attitude when I tell them this is dismissive. But I sold a business for 6 figures last year that was parimarily automation scripts in PHP. Figure that one out.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by jjjensen90 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @04:17AM (#18281650)
> But I sold a business for 6 figures last year that was parimarily automation scripts in PHP. Figure that one out.

This is something I've tried to tell my teams over the years... There is no direct correlation between technical complexity and business value!

Some problems require complex engineering to be solved, but value and even durability do not come from technical excellence for 99.99% of businesses... Of course as a software developer I prefer to walk pristine halls of cutting edge software with perfect tests but the businesses I've sold/run have numbed me to the idea that fancy code makes the big bucks...

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by darkerside on Monday October 22, 2018 @07:20PM (#18279436)
Here's a counterpoint.

It's ok that you don't know what docker is.

It's ok that you don't know what a shell is.

What exactly is the nature of the dismissive attitude from others that has held you back from learning? Perhaps these are real opinions, but consider the source. If they are smarter than they are rude, and their opinions hold value, maybe suck it up and learn something. If it's not worth it to you, ignore them and walk away. Regardless, don't let other people's feelings hold you back from learning. And don't let other people's feelings about you dictate your feelings about yourself.

On the other hand, perhaps these attitudes are partly a projection of your own feelings. Use it as motivation to learn the things that you feel like you should know.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by Avshalom on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @01:06AM (#18280850)
Yeah it's fine not to know what docker is in like a moral sense. But when it comes to wanting to write anything beyond hello world you start running into package and environment and container managers that everyone is arguing with everyone about. I mean hell this thread is like three different recommendations for python that all end with "fuck it use JavaScript".

That shit is discouraging and the annoying thing--coming from some who first wrote a Tetris clone a decade ago--is that it's recent. A decade ago you just downloaded a library and put it in the folder you were writing in. Now while that still probably works library how-tos have all either gotten complicated or assume you've already complicated that shit.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by TeMPOraL on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @02:27AM (#18281157)
> A decade ago you just downloaded a library and put it in the folder you were writing in.

And you run software by downloading a .zip, unpacking it and executing the program in that folder.

I miss the times when both development and use was that simple. And it was what, like 10 years ago?

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by nonce725 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:51AM (#18282054)
Valid point about projecting my own feelings.

I was more trying to make a point that if you're writing a guide or tutorial, actually start from the beginning.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by darkerside on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @10:37AM (#18283701)
I understand it can be frustrating, but keep in mind your beginning is different from other people's beginnings. It's similar to the problem of telling the story of an historical event. Where do you start? To analyze the root cause of e.g WW1, you'd end up going back to the beginning of recorded history.

Part of learning to learn is learning to keep going through things even when you don't fully understand.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by iamdave on Monday October 22, 2018 @07:15PM (#18279414)
But I sold a business for 6 figures last year that was parimarily automation scripts in PHP. Figure that one out.

I'd be keen to learn more, can I reach out? I'm not really looking for guidance or ideas to do the same, I just genuinely enjoy reading these kinds of stories-like a weird Reader's Digest sort of thing but for entrepreneurs.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by avip on Monday October 22, 2018 @07:11PM (#18279398)
I do not assume anything. I'm taking the beginner seat almost daily, in some context or another. But he who shell instruct his children to start with installing docker, rather with installing "python" (which is an ill-defined term) - will have much, much sooner, a class running predictable setup. And, speaking of assuming things - it will keep running even without network connectivity.
Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by Sophistifunk on Monday October 22, 2018 @08:15PM (#18279765)
10 minutes installing and configuring docker is a good way for beginners to start programming?
Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by avip on Monday October 22, 2018 @08:17PM (#18279782)
No. It's a good way for a programming instructor to start a programming class. And there is nothing to "configure" in docker.
Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by calgoo on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @05:21AM (#18281924)
Last time i setup docker for some quick testing i had to:

1. Install docker using Apt or Yum 1a. So for CentOS i had to download and run a script on my machine to add the repository and install. 1b. Setup autostart of the service 1c. Configure my user so i can manage docker without sudo.

Then once its installed: 2a. Lookup the correct flags to use 2b. Find the correct image to run 2c. Learn how to map a local folder for persistence 2d. Learn how to open ports for the program to be accessible.

As a system administrator with 15+ years of experience, this is easy for me. But if I where to ask someone without any system experience to do this, I can for-see a lot of frustrating moments where they would give up.

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by avip on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @06:24AM (#18282181)
What would you suggest as an alternative plan for shepherding 10 random dudes and their homegrown laptops into a consistent state of python + pip installed?
Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by calgoo on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @07:05AM (#18282332)
Thats the problem I guess, how to standardize something that's not standard and never will be.

Im sure that VMs have been tested and done as well, bringing their own different issues. We could add another layer of abstraction, like some type of orchestration tool, but then that needs to be supported and there will still be issues with the system underneath.

Maybe stat with something like lambda in AWS using their cloud9 instance as an IDE? It will cost a few $ but might help with the basics. However, this would only be good for very limited learning, so maybe add a small sysadmin crash course after that?

So maybe schedule it similar to this:

Basics: 10 days of coding in lambda using dynodb etc.

Systems: 2 days of devops using python to setup and control the environment

Rest of the course ....

Re:Repl.it raises $4.5M from A16Z, Paul Graham, and others by brett40324 on Tuesday October 23, 2018 @10:01PM (#18289101)
They learn how to learn and get their feet wet with reading documentation. First docs to read, follow, and do: The python docs on installing pip and virtualenv