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Re:New in Chrome 70 by simias on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:31AM (#18247720)
>Too much time spent on "can we", too little time spent on "should we".

I mean, that's the web summed up in a single sentence. What started as a way to view text and pictures online is now more complicated than many operating systems. You cram all that stuff into a single binary, give lackluster and ever changing controls to manage all that and call it the future. Never attempt to break down the functionality across several dedicated clients that do only one thing and do it well, that's for losers.

But I somehow disagree with your statement in that it seems to imply that the people designing that garbage are naive or don't really think about the consequences of what they're doing. That might have been true in the early days of the web when nobody knew exactly what it was going to be but it's clearly not the case now.

The folks at Google know exactly what they are doing, making browsers more complicated and easier to interconnect with smartphone is win/win for them. It makes it harder to make a competing browser (anybody attempting to make a new browser these days basically has to fork Chrome or Firefox, and generally they go with the former), you need huge developer resources to maintain and optimize it (look at how hard Firefox is struggling to keep up despite the large number of people working full time on it) and while the big G doesn't control Windows, Mac or Linux they do control Chrome and Android so they have a huge incentive to push everything possible away from desktop OSs and into Chrome. They want Chrome to be the OS.

Google is 90's Microsoft with better PR. Well actually it's worse than that because MS didn't usually have access to my private data while google knows almost everything about their users if they have an Android phone and use gmail.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by NeedMoreTea on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:09AM (#18247984)
The user is not a part of the conversation. Very little seems to be for the user any more, as every site and browser update seems to demonstrate.

I don't want Chrome or Firefox or any browser to be the OS, I don't want 99% of the gimmicks that are getting added. I can barely tolerate an OS being the OS given how they are steadily moving to less and less actual control and towards knowing best (Windows updates, iOS turning bluetooth off "until tomorrow" etc etc).

Just in case I'm becoming too old to be relevant, neither do my kids and their friends as far as I can see. if anything they're far more simplistic than me - YT, browsing, and a few chat and social apps. So presumably all this junk is for adtech and tracking, for sites to hassle us on yet another device.

Of my friends who work in tech, none of them seem to much like the monster they helped create any more.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by tree_of_item on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:19AM (#18248498)
I love the fact that there's an OS-in-OS. It makes writing cross platform applications with easy distribution and access to rich APIs very easy.
Re:New in Chrome 70 by simias on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:26AM (#18249076)
I agree that it's great, my big problem is that most web pages don't have anything to do with being an "application", they're just a document. I'd say that 99% of my web browsing has nothing to do with web applications. Hacker News, Wikipedia, search results, news websites, issue trackers... When I look at my browsing history I don't find many webapps.

Of course if you use a fancy webmail, Google docks or even something like Facebook it makes sense to have a full blown webapp but I personally seldom use these. But the thing is whether or not you need those feature they still bloat your web browser because you have to have it. How many websites ought to require JS to function properly out there? How many do?

Have you tried browsing the new Reddit interface on a low power smartphone? So much richness that it's barely usable. All that to display a list of titles or text comments. Or how about Discord which manages to lag in my browser despite being effectively a chat application.

Sometimes less is more. We've made it normal for people to use software that by default automatically runs a turing complete programming language for any random website you browse. If we had a tiny little bit of friction for going from website to webapp developpers and managers would think twice before cramming "rich" features and a thousand ad scripts everywhere.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by tree_of_item on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:03PM (#18250038)
The way to solve this is static analysis. I'm not giving up on the Turing machine, so we'll just need a way to analyze a given machine to determine whether it falls in to your low power use case.
Re:New in Chrome 70 by likereading on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:39AM (#18249219)
Hackernews, Wikipedia, issue trackers are all web apps and not documents even if the primary function is to show documents/text. They all have functionality to add/edit comments, etc.
Re:New in Chrome 70 by simias on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:35PM (#18249757)
AFAIK the only functionality requiring JS on Hacker News is the up/downvote system. Comments open a new page anyway, so does editing. Wikipedia and issue trackers are the same, you only need to be able to GET and POST content basically. In terms of complexity it's very low.

You're right that they're not completely read-only documents but the interactive functionality is limited enough that it doesn't really qualify as an app. You don't need a client-side turing complete language to implement it, just forms. It's more akin to filling some paper form than interacting with Visual Studio if you see what I mean.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by krapp on Thursday October 18, 2018 @05:42PM (#18252395)
Very little on the web qualifies as a "web app" if the definition of that is, in essence, a simulation of a native application in the browser rather than merely an interactive document. But if that's the case, why are people upset about web apps "taking over" the document paradigm of the web?

Most of the web is still designed around displaying text. Even SPAs that require javascript to display text, for all the faults and valid criticisms that model entails, is still no less of a document in terms of its intended function than a bare HTML page.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by drankula3 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @10:41AM (#18248674)
This is true, there are benefits. We must ask ourselves collectively whether the benefits(easier cross platform development) are worth the price(increased data collection by gigantic multinational corporations used to manipulate populations to direct user spending).
Re:New in Chrome 70 by tree_of_item on Thursday October 18, 2018 @01:04PM (#18250051)
And the answer is yes, the benefits are worth the price, provided you have a way to analyze a given page to determine whether or not it's a part of that multinational corporation botnet.
Re:New in Chrome 70 by UI_at_80x24 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @08:59AM (#18247910)
>Google is 90's Microsoft with better PR. Well actually it's worse than that because MS didn't usually have access to my private data while google knows almost everything about their users if they have an Android phone and use gmail

This is the statement that I have known for years but never put into words. And it rings terrifyingly true.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by dvfjsdhgfv on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:24AM (#18248079)
What is terrifying for me is that when it was happening - and it didn't happen overnight, it was a long process - relatively few people were objecting. The ones who objected were often ridiculed as the tinfoil-hat group. The people who should have been smart enough have been blinded by shiny new releases, the amazing things we can do now, for free. It's only recently that the general public started to discover the ugly truth, whereas we could clearly see it already many years ago!
Re:New in Chrome 70 by crankylinuxuser on Thursday October 18, 2018 @12:20PM (#18249612)
That's a tough one.

When I started using Google services, I knew they were siphoning my data and using it personally and as a group to do machine-learny things. TANSTAAFL. I made that choice voluntarily, knowing they weren't going to be upfront about it.

I also made $8.35/hr at a crummy job when I made that decision. I couldn't afford the services Google offered for free from anywhere else.

These days, I'm working as a competent sysad, making appropriate pay. Now, I can afford for-pay services that can supplant various googly-eyed services. But now, my problem is different: how do I know non-google company doing X that I pay for isn't also making similar deals with advert companies? How do I know my data is private?

Obviously, Google is a SPOF in many ways. I don't like that. But the converse is to pay individual companies for service, and hope they're better than Google with respect to service, privacy, and ethics. But those are awfully nebulous to gauge.

Re:New in Chrome 70 by mason55 on Thursday October 18, 2018 @11:26AM (#18249079)
> Never attempt to break down the functionality across several dedicated clients that do only one thing and do it well, that's for losers.

I think this is funny because people also complain that Facebook broke Messenger out into its own app. I realize that "the internet" is not just one person and has varying opinions, but it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't"

Re:New in Chrome 70 by dvfjsdhgfv on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:19AM (#18248043)
Microsoft used to have decent PR in the past, too. They lost it because of their user-hostile behavior, just like Google is losing it now.
Re:New in Chrome 70 by simias on Thursday October 18, 2018 @09:45AM (#18248232)
They had good PR with businesses but I don't think they really cared much about the opinions of end users. When the overwhelming majority of computers sold come preinstalled with your software you don't really care if people dislike you. I think for many people (even today) Windows is just something they need to use the software they want. Chrome is getting there too, with more and more websites requiring it to work correctly.

When your audience is captive you don't have to pretend to care anymore.