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Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:15PM (#18242681)
You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying you would be; I'm saying, that's one conundrum I like never having on my mind.

(20% on a muffin is like 80 cents, by the way).

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by comex on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:00PM (#18243157)
The glass jar was clearly optional, from an etiquette perspective; nobody will judge you for walking away without dropping anything in it (except perhaps loose change). iPads are different in two ways.

First, they make the experience more closely resemble tipping at a restaurant. Since etiquette fundamentally relies on on implications and expectations, that’s a lot more significant than it would be in other contexts. It creates a real suggestion that you should consider 15-20% mandatory, just as in restaurants.

Second, they force you to make an explicit choice: if you don’t want to tip, you have to actively press a “No Tip” button. This makes it feel more like an active disservice to the worker, rather than just doing the normal thing – to you, and to anyone watching you. Consider if, hypothetically, the worker themselves asked you if you wanted to tip: it’d be very hard to say no to their face! Having a screen prompt you (while the worker may or may not look away) is much less extreme, but it’s still a shift in that direction, compared to an inert tip jar.

Personally, it just feels awkward to me. I don’t mind tipping in restaurants because there’s a clear protocol. I just have to imagine the prices are 20% higher than what’s printed on the menu. But asking for a tip in situations where no tip was previously expected seems almost… passive-aggressive, I guess? If you want to bump prices by 20%, go ahead, I won’t mind, probably won’t even notice. But don’t do what amounts to an optional 20% price increase, creating unnecessary decision and emotional fatigue for me when I’m just trying to make a simple purchase. That is: If I choose not to tip, I’ll feel guilty. If I choose to tip, I’ll feel worried that I overpaid. Both feelings will fade quickly, because the amount is small enough that it’s not really a big deal; but they still damage what should be a simple pleasant experience.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:13PM (#18243296)
I guess I see the point. But why not just tip? The coffee shop tip is like, a buck. The regulars at the coffee shop were already tipping, like, a buck every time they got coffee.

The countervailing force the iPad is addressing is the fact that customers aren't carrying cash anymore. Without the prompt, counter workers aren't going to get tipped at all.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:40PM (#18243583)
>I guess I see the point. But why not just tip? The coffee shop tip is like, a buck.

For the reason I already gave: you can't seriously expect everyone to accede to every demand for paying 20% more. That's not an actual, practical decision theory.

"I can afford 80 cents" isn't responsive.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @05:42PM (#18244085)
First they came for the 20% at Per Se, and I did not speak out, for I wasn't the person paying the tab.

Then they came for the 20% at Ruth's Chris, and I did not speak out, for I had gotten tipsy on cabernet.

Then they came for the 20% at Olive Garden, and I did not speak out, for I thought the server was attractive.

Then they came for the 20% at Intelligentsia, and I did not speak out, for the creeping norm of paying 20% had been established.

They they came for 20% of my internal organs --- and there was nobody left to speak for me.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @06:05PM (#18244262)
If this is trying to be clever, it could use some work, and if there's a substantive point, I'm not seeing it.

The point is that your purported, self-glorifying norm asks one to pay the default PoS tip of everyone who demands or might demand it in the future, to say "yes" to all of them. Counter purchases, grocery stores, fast food, whatever.

Could you maybe consider that there might be better and more practical heuristics?

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @06:21PM (#18244349)
Ok, but I draw the line at movie ticket box office purchases. That far, and no further.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @07:27PM (#18244708)
So, no substantive contributions to make?
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by ballenf on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:23PM (#18242773)
> not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers

I feel like tipping is perpetuating the asshole behavior of owners underpaying employees. I actually feel like I'm making the world a slightly worse place when I tip out of guilt or fear of judgment from those around me. But I clearly know I'm in the small minority with this view.

(Purely in the circumstances discussed here. For traditional full service settings, I'd call myself a generous tipper.)

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by jakelazaroff on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:57PM (#18243117)
> I actually feel like I'm making the world a slightly worse place when I tip out of guilt or fear of judgment from those around me.

I would argue you're making the world a slightly better place! Your decision to tip (or not) is vaaaaaastly more impactful to the employee on the receiving end than to tipping laws and culture in general.

Yes, the tipped minimum wage enables massive wage theft, etc, but your aggregate decisions about whether or not to tip have approximately zero effect on that.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by taormina on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:39PM (#18242943)
It does at least alter the expectations. A jar encourages you to toss your change in, and every little bit can be appreciated. Seeing 15%, 18% and 20% as the available options on an already overpriced coffee can make you even feel like more of a scrooge if you hold up the line manually entering 23 cents.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by zaroth on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:57PM (#18243122)
80 cents on a muffin? Which works out to - what - $40/hour at a busy coffee shop checkout line? 1 ring per minute is probably an extremely low estimate in any case, although some of those orders have baristas working on them too. But we’re talking about tipping on prepackaged food here, right?

My sister in law works at Starbucks. She’s a manager so she gets zero share of the tips, but for a busy Starbucks in an affluent area, tips work out to about $100 per week for someone working 35 hours.

Holidays are much higher. Some people will tip for the whole year effectively, putting $20 in the jar.

A lot of rough guesses in the math but $100/week looks like it would work out to 5% at most. Their store is definitely above average for daily revenue.

Most people are definitely not tipping 15% on that muffin.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by threatofrain on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:02PM (#18243185)
But Starbucks doesn't really solicit tip.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by zaroth on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:03PM (#18243200)
Exactly! So it seems like the perfect counterpoint to Square’s tip begging UI.

Starbucks did add tipping to app orders, but it’s a bit more subtle. It’s not right there on the checkout screen before you even receive your items, for example.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:20PM (#18242737)
If you're ever wondering what a good use for the term "virtue signaling" is, this comment would be it: advocacy of something impractical for the typical person but which makes you look good.

"Just give money in every transaction that labels it a tip at PoS. What's the problem? Why do you have to think about whether the demand is merited? I can afford it, and I find it worthwhile to know I didn't break any rules."

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tptacek on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:22PM (#18242759)
That was a very rude way to make the point that you think some people can't afford to tip for their coffee shop muffin.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:24PM (#18242788)
And that was a rude way to strawman my point that your "rule" is not about 80 cents, but about conceding to every such demand, and is therefore impractical as actionable advice for everyday life. (Making you look generous, and me unable to afford the tip on one coffee shop muffin, on the other hand...)

Edit: I would say it is indeed unreasonable to expect people to increase payment on any good by 20% merely on the chance that they might be expected to -- few people can afford 20% slack on every purchase. Also, I only brought up VS because I'd seen you question the utility of the concept and this seemed illustrative.

Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by tedunangst on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @03:55PM (#18243107)
But what if the cost of the muffin itself went up 20%? Would people stop buying it? The shops around here don't even list prices for muffins. It could be $3 or it could be $5. Customers seem to think they can afford it either way.
Re:You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquet... by SilasX on Wednesday October 17, 2018 @04:38PM (#18243567)
I was referring to the case where all expenses go up 20% and claiming that most people's budgets couldn't handle it (cf. stories about not handling a $500 unexpected bill). This is the relevant case to compare to if you take tptacek's advice seriously and operate your life on it -- you can't just say "Hey, it's 80 cents, obviously people don't turn away from that". You have to ask, "what if I responded to all requests for a tip at electronic PoS this way?"

Goods do fluctuate in price day-to-day, but in an uncorrelated fashion; that kind of fluctuation doesn't have the same effect since some are up and others down.