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Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by rayiner on Monday October 15, 2018 @06:50PM (#18224693)
The argument must be considered within the legal context. In this lawsuit, Harvard is accused of directly discriminating against Asians, not just indirectly harming them by giving a boost to black or hispanic applicants. Under no interpretation of equal protection is that acceptable. The indirect effects of affirmative action that you point to are, by contrast, permissible under at least some formulations of equal protection.

Harvard's strategy thus, and that's what's reflected in the argument you quote, must be to (1) defeat the allegation that it is affirmatively trying to keep Asians out; (2) explain that any knock-on effects to Asians from affirmative action benefiting other groups is within the bounds of what the Supreme Court has found acceptable in cases like Bakke and Grutter.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 15, 2018 @07:38PM (#18225094)
> In this lawsuit, Harvard is accused of directly discriminating against Asians, not just indirectly harming them by giving a boost to black or hispanic applicants.

But that's the exact same thing.

If you have a system where there are 1000 slots and the 1000 applicants with the highest scores get in, and you give Asian applicants +0, white applicants +5, Hispanic applicants +10 and black applicants +20, the outcome is entirely identical to giving Asian applicants -10, white applicants -5, Hispanic applicants +0 and black applicants +10. There is no meaningful difference, the people who consequently get in are exactly the same in both cases.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by rayiner on Monday October 15, 2018 @07:40PM (#18225104)
Assuming scores are randomly distributed, your hypothetical gives different results if you give asians -5 than if you give black and hispanic applicants +5.

Harvard is accused of excluding more than half the asian applicants who otherwise would have made the cut. Harvard does not admit anywhere near enough disadvantaged minorities where giving those folks a boost would lead to that many asians not getting a spot.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by fmajid on Monday October 15, 2018 @07:55PM (#18225198)
Harvard (and other Ivies) repurposed a mechanism originally introduced by Yale to keep Jews out in the 1930s. If those Asian candidates had not been excluded using the arbitrary and capricious "personal" rating, it's mostly Caucasians who would have been displaced, not African-Americans or Hispanics.

The personal rating differs widely between the admissions committee and the the alumni volunteers (who give Asians roughly the same ratings as other groups). This happens for no other ethnic group. This is the smoking gun for racial discrimination.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by JackFaker on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @05:57PM (#18233652)
Is there a source for this claim?
Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 15, 2018 @08:04PM (#18225264)
> Assuming scores are randomly distributed, your hypothetical gives different results if you give asians -5 than if you give black and hispanic applicants +5.

If there are only asian, black and hispanic applicants, it gives exactly the same results. When there are also white applicants, that change is equivalent to adding a -5 modifier for white applicants equal to the original -5 modifier for asian applicants. In neither case is the result a system in which race can only help you -- there are a finite number of slots.

It seems obviously wrong that if you gave +20 to white applicants it would not be a disadvantage to black, hispanic or asian applicants just because they all have the same equally-disadvantaged modifiers.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by rayiner on Monday October 15, 2018 @08:21PM (#18225352)
Clearly there is no system where you can admit a black or hispanic applicant, keep class size fixed, and not push out a marginal white or asian candidate. But that doesn’t mean there is no difference between “discriminating against asians” and “giving a boost to disadvantaged minorities.” In the former case, only marginal asians get pushed below the cutoff. In the latter case, mostly white candidates will get pushed out.

Especially in the latter case, the effect on asians is indirect and attenuted. For example, say Harvard would have been 60% white, 30% asian, and 10% underrepresented minority. You can double the representation of disadvantaged minorities by reducing the asian representation from 30% to about 27%. So basically the bottom 10% of asians get exluded.

What is instead being alleged here is that Harvard exluded more than half the Asians that otherwise would have been admitted.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by AnthonyMouse on Monday October 15, 2018 @09:15PM (#18225627)
> But that doesn’t mean there is no difference between “discriminating against asians” and “giving a boost to disadvantaged minorities.”

The only possible difference is adding white people (or some other separate group) to the "discriminating against" set. And the combination of that precedent and intersectional politics makes even those equivalent as soon as you start adding more non-asian subgroups to the set of disadvantaged minorities.

For example, the white population at Harvard is overly culturally homogeneous. It would legitimately be a significant benefit to their cultural diversity to get some more rednecks in there, using some suitably more specific definition with regard to income, hometown urbanization level, etc.

So if you want to discriminate against a specific group, easy -- just enumerate a bunch of underrepresented groups that don't include them and give them each a bonus. Any given applicant outside of the target victim group is likely to be in one of them.

> So basically the bottom 10% of asians get exluded.

That's just because you're using convenient numbers. If the merit-based numbers would have been 60% asian (e.g. because Asia has a couple billion people who would all like to go to Harvard), you do have to exclude half of them to get them down to 30%.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by screye on Monday October 15, 2018 @09:49PM (#18225744)
Oh, I see how it is. Black people we're never discriminated against in democracy, because they always had 1 vote per person. It is just that white people got an extra 0.66 every time.

I know it is hyperbole. But college admissions are zero sum games. Giving points to one person, is the same as taking those away from another.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by rayiner on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @10:22AM (#18229585)
You know black slaves couldn’t vote right.
Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by screye on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @11:06AM (#18229967)
This is extremely embarrassing for me. (my only weak excuse being I am not American)

I thought that there was a period in american history after the civil war where black people's vote counted for 3/5th of a white person.

Turns out it was how electoral votes were decided, in which only slave owner voted before the civil war.

Well, you learning something new every day. I am an idiot.

Re:Harvard Asian-American discrimination case opens with pac... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday October 16, 2018 @06:14PM (#18233756)
Not an idiot. "Less knowledgeable about details of how a country other than your own was governed more than a century ago" does not deserve the label "idiot".