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Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by angry_octet on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @03:57AM (#18182886)
I could write a long paper on this, and I would have if I thought it would've made a difference... But some highlights:

- Stovepiped organisations: stick in your own lane. But security is cross cutting.

- Security orgs want to stick to what they know about, not what the threat scope is.

- Security unwilling to own risk, fall back on ass-covering checklists and mandatory processes. This leads to them being an obstacle, a cost rather than a benefit.

- True lack of expertise at stakeholder level. Particularly in the US, the experts are contracted, and never speak out of turn.

- Staying quiet. Americans are extremely conscious of organisational (rather than technical) status and embarassment, and it isn't career enhancing to identify naked emperors.

- Good security costs money upfront, and pays back over time. Bad security is free at the beginning, and costs massive amounts to fix, but: (a) fixing is someone else's problem, (b) fixing is new contracts and more work, (c) systems might not be noticeably hacked.

Large companies (e.g. Lockheed Martin) are often very adversarial, and deny fault with lawyers. I've often wondered if places like Japan, with more cooperative cultures, can address this differently.

Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by sorokod on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @04:15AM (#18182962)
Security unwilling to own risk, fall back on ass-covering checklists and mandatory processes. This leads to them being an obstacle, a cost rather than a benefit.

How well this statement retains its correctness across time and space. Pretty much my experience in every company beyond certain size.

Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by MattPalmer1086 on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @06:24AM (#18183522)
I mostly agree with the points you're making, but...

> Security unwilling to own risk

Security cannot fundamentally own risks created by other parts of the organisation. I'd actually put it the other way around - the organisation is often unwilling to own risks identified by security.

Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by angry_octet on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @08:04AM (#18184022)
Security needs to accept that is their job to secure the operations of the org, not prevent the org from doing things which don't fit into easy use cases.

For example, the chem eng group own the risk of the chemistry being wrong and the plant blowing up. They don't get to say 'let's outsource production to ChemCorp'. Likewise, security needs to secure the ICS, not just ignore it and say 'the SCADA guys do that, it needs SMB1' or when the risks are pointed out say 'you must now change the passwords every 30 days'.

Business units burying their head in the sand? Well, that can happen too. Pen-tests are great for demonstrating problems, but how many security orgs have the ovaries to do them and force realisation? Did security work with the business unit to mitigate risk, or just want to shut it down?

I'd love to get specific but my point is that there is a lack of holistic vision across the enterprise, and incentivising cooperation between stovepipes is needed, and being willing to take risk -- not throwing away the rule book, but writing a new chapter on how to apply it in context.

Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by nradov on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @09:10AM (#18184474)
Japan doesn't appear to be doing much better.

https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/53856/cyber-warfare-2/d...

Re:DOD Just Beginning to Grapple with Scale of Weapon System... by angry_octet on Wednesday October 10, 2018 @09:33AM (#18184643)
There isn't really sufficient information to judge. Persistent attackers would almost certainly achieve eventual compromise on the type of network described. It's really a question of whether when they find a problem (crashed system, non-compliant senior staff, buggy security protocols, etc) they report it, and then it gets acted on.

Japan invented some of the best aspects of safety culture, like being process driven, checklists, point & call https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-j...

It has been remarked before that if security was treated the same as safety critical systems (like aviation operations, and increasingly, hospitals) then we would have much better security. Tbh, I'm not sure, because of the adversarial nature of attack and defence, but it would be interesting to test.