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Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kareemsabri on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:29AM (#18155610)
Not sure why he would do that, I see people much older than him still driving. But he'll stay home, I imagine. Or get rides from his family members, or younger wife.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by Retric on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:37AM (#18155643)
Vision degradation with age is a common issue.

Really though, public transit is vastly better from a heath, independence, financial, and safety standpoint for the elderly than driving.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by frabbit on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:42AM (#18155670)
Not to mention dementia, arthritis, diabetes, decreased articulation. Old people in rural areas and suburbs without mass transit are in a very vulnerable position.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by nn3 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @01:24PM (#18156188)
It can be also useful for social contacts. I recently rode the bus in a small american city I was visiting. The main users were teens and old people. The old people mostly knew each other and chatted pleasantly during the whole ride.

Given that won't work that well in a large city, but even then it's still better to be under people than sitting alone in your car.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by cultus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @11:52AM (#18155728)
It sounds like your father has a good support network in case he can no longer drive, but that isn't really so common nowadays. Most elderly folks in his situation would either:

A. Continue driving past the point they they are safely able to.

B. Become shut-ins due to lack of transportation, accelerating physical and mental decline.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kareemsabri on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:07PM (#18155795)
I guess I don't see how banning cars in cities solves that problem for the elderly (particularly outside of cities).
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by cultus on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:50PM (#18155994)
You said that your dad's anti-BART habit is hard to break, but elderly should really be encouraged to use public transit. It is safer and healthier. I get that transit sucks in suburbs, but that is something that should be fixed.

People live in high density areas. The residents should have higher priority than folks from the suburbs who choose to drive rather than taking public transit. That means having usable and human-focused urban design.

I generally am very much for pricing in externalities, as you say. But when it comes to cars in very dense areas, there is a significant discontinuity in social cost between zero cars (pedestrians can freely use the streets, no traffic lights, etc) and a few cars (like in congestion pricing schemes). With even a few cars, walking becomes far more inconvenient, and there is much less public space.

In dense urban cores, a huge proportion of the land area is essentially vacant, only used by a small minority that choose to drive. It is really a bizarre way of doing things.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kcorbitt on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:27PM (#18156797)
> But when it comes to cars in very dense areas, there is a significant discontinuity in social cost between zero cars (pedestrians can freely use the streets, no traffic lights, etc) and a few cars (like in congestion pricing schemes).

In my experience that's not quite the case. I lived in Barcelona's old town for about a year, and while it was technically legal to drive on many of the narrow, medieval-era streets, in practice it was enough of a pain that drivers rarely did.

Because of the high volume of pedestrians, the few cars that did come through were forced to travel very slowly and the burden was on them to avoid hitting anyone, not the other way around. So I don't think you have to go all the way down to 0 cars to get most of the safety benefits – there's a tipping point somewhere earlier.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by cultus on Sunday October 07, 2018 @10:14AM (#18160629)
I have walked and accidentally driven in such areas in Europe, but the street layout and dynamics are very different in the US. The problem is that in the US we have wide, straight streets. We don't have the same kind of built-in traffic calming. There is also much more driver entitlement here.

Turning some areas into woonerfs might be a solution. It's also worth pointing out that many pedestrianized areas still allow delivery vehicles.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by kareemsabri on Saturday October 06, 2018 @03:56PM (#18156954)
Totally! The all-or-none option seems extreme to me, especially in America, where we have lots of roads that can handle quite a few cars.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by closeparen on Saturday October 06, 2018 @06:56PM (#18157799)
> The residents should have higher priority than folks from the suburbs who choose to drive rather than taking public transit

This is straight-up regressive: the dense areas are most premium, with transit-connected suburbs a close second, and car-oriented suburbs the only places affordable to the masses.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by ip26 on Saturday October 06, 2018 @12:48PM (#18155980)
Banning cars in a city or some part of a city is a step in the process of making a city where you don't need a car. Removing the traffic, exhaust, & safety risk to other users helps make biking, walking, bussing, and rail faster, safer, & more pleasant.
Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by closeparen on Saturday October 06, 2018 @07:06PM (#18157845)
Traffic is irrelevant for trains. It has some effect on buses, which can be mitigated with HOV lanes. (Usually the problem there is frequency and a lack of express service). At the distances most people need to travel to reach their workplaces from affordable housing, walking and cycling are never going to be pleasant.

Banning cars from a city is a straight-up transfer of quality of life from the suburban masses to the richest in the center.

Drastically increasing high-rise housing supply in the center is a much more meaningful step.

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by ip26 on Sunday October 07, 2018 @06:42PM (#18163017)
Drastically increasing high-rise housing supply in the center is a much more meaningful step.

What are you going to do with all those extra cars?

Traffic is irrelevant for trains

Not for trolleys!

Re:Madrid announces new rules of the road in bid to banish t... by closeparen on Sunday October 07, 2018 @08:14PM (#18163330)
Nothing. Developers can dig garages if they care to, or not if they don’t. We’ve already established that driving in the urban core is unreasonable, so congestion is not a concern.

Trolleys are just buses with fewer degrees of freedom.