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Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by mc32 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:44PM (#18069829)
I think the problem would be if their Search aspect were to be classified as a utility, then they would have to be more careful of their results manipulation.

So long as they are not regulated as such, then I don’t think the gov should get involved. But then again, that raises the question, should google be allowed lawfully to, say, supress all topics around Atheism, or Christmas or Hanukah or Russian meddling, if their management and ownership changed to one even more manipulative?

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by magicalist on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:02PM (#18070444)
> I think the problem would be if their Search aspect were to be classified as a utility

People have been writing this, but I'm curious what they mean, as there is no single legal "Utility" classification that could be put on something like google or facebook.

Is there a specific legal approach people are talking about or is it just the commonly understood meaning of "utility" they're referring to?

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by Someguywhatever on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:33PM (#18070681)
Example: You can't shut off somebody's electricity or water because they are a bad person, or have expressed unorthodox opinions. But you can shut off their twitter, their email, their web search, their facebook, their linked-in, stop processing payments for them (potentially cutting them off from their livelihood). You can cut them off from their digital identity and shut them out of the digital "public" in a manner of speaking. When that happens right now today, people hand-wave it away because "X is a private company they can do what they want." Never minding the fact that X has become how almost everybody addresses/interacts with the rest of the public digitally, or how X has ALL their email data, and many important documents etc Getting locked out of these things is not life threatening in the way that no water is, but it can essentially delete somebody from the "public" with almost no recourse.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by Kalium on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:42PM (#18070758)
Many years ago, the same was true of phone books. The publishers of those were, as far as I am aware, free to delist whomever they pleased for any reason.

I'm not aware phone books being regulated as utilities.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by mc32 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:45PM (#18070777)
IIRC you had to pay to not appear in the phone book.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by Someguywhatever on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @10:51AM (#18076514)
I think the main point is not to get bogged down in whether or not phone books are this or that, or how legacy media relates to the internet era etc.

The point i'm making is not : "Do you sympathize with 'bad guys'?"

it's more: "Would you want whats happening to 'bad guys' to happen to you?".

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by jonwachob91 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:05PM (#18070922)
The utility company will turn off your services for failure to pay, a violation of their ToS. Twitter/Facebook/Google/whomever will suspend your account for violating their terms of service. What's the difference?
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by roenxi on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:31PM (#18071108)
A usual TOS relationship with a utility isn't politically charged.

The important line that is being crossed here is that you can get banned from Twitter/Facebook/Google/whomever for saying something that is not illegal but is in the opinion of the company objectionable.

No utility has the power to disconnect me if I do something they think is objectionable with their service. And that goes to the heart of what people seem to want from "regulating as a utility" (a phrase that is terrifying in its vagueness) - they want freedom to voice unpopular opinions and let those who agree, agree.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by s73v3r_ on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:46PM (#18071190)
But does that extend to advocating harassment? That's what Jones was accused of doing. Does harassment count as an unpopular opinion?
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by roenxi on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:53PM (#18071241)
I have no idea what Jones was doing, not being an InfoWars viewer or following the story closely.

But, I feel under no threat of being disconnected by my water provider because /they think/ that I am harassing someone.

For Jones in particular, I believe the appropriate channels of response are for the person being harassed to: (1) Sue him (2) Respond clearly.

The tech majors, who have mounting leaked evidence that their management is politically active in the workplace, should not be arbitrating what a publisher does. If they do, then they are publishers themselves, in which case they should be regulated differently and their status as publishers made very public.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by s73v3r_ on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @11:56AM (#18077238)
"I have no idea what Jones was doing"

Then it seems very bad faith for you to be using him as an example.

"For Jones in particular, I believe the appropriate channels of response are for the person being harassed to: (1) Sue him (2) Respond clearly."

This is simply not true. Further, if you're Twitter, and you have users that are harassing other users, that makes those users less wanting to use your platform. And you have other people that catch wind that Twitter is doing nothing about harassment, and now very few people want to use Twitter.

"The tech majors, who have mounting leaked evidence that their management is politically active in the workplace"

[Citation Needed]

"If they do, then they are publishers themselves, in which case they should be regulated differently and their status as publishers made very public."

I disagree. Asking someone to leave who is harassing other users is not causing themselves to be publishers.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by tomp on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:14PM (#18071360)
Harassment is not illegal. I believe the parent’s point is that a utility seevice can’t disconnect you because of vague allegations of legal behaviour such as “harassment”.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by GW150914 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:17PM (#18071374)
Harassment is not illegal.

That’s simply not true.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/h/harassment/

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by tomp on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @08:54PM (#18071810)
Ok, well, Twitter harassment is not illegal. The link you point to only mentions physical harassment (e.g. followig someone, making them reasonably feel unsafe, assaulting them). Harassing speech (and hate speech) is legal (in the US).
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by GW150914 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:55PM (#18072085)
Ok, well, Twitter harassment is not illegal. The link you point to only mentions physical harassment (e.g. followig someone, making them reasonably feel unsafe, assaulting them). Harassing speech (and hate speech) is legal (in the US).

In fact it specifically mentions anonymous communications in a variety of forms.

Either (a) communicates with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or (b) causes a communication to be initiated by mechanical or electronic means or otherwise with a person, anonymously or otherwise, by telephone, or by telegraph, mail or any other form of written communication, in a manner likely to cause annoyance or alarm; or Makes a telephone call, whether or not a conversation ensues, with no purpose of legitimate communication;...

I can only recommend a more in-depth reading for you. At the very least you owe it to yourself to have basic knowledge of the laws in question before you go about declaring what’s legal and illegal.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by tomp on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @05:04AM (#18074107)
Ah, interesting, I didn’t realize there were so many exemptions to free speech. Thanks! So basically all IRS letters are “illegal” :)
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by s73v3r_ on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:44PM (#18071181)
Electricity and water are pretty important to be able to live. Being able to rant on Twitter isn't.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by mc32 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:25PM (#18071425)
The right to vote and the right to free speech are also not essential to life, but we defend both as pillars of a free society.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by spunker540 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:31PM (#18071965)
People blocked on Twitter are free to host their own websites with their own speech.

I really don’t believe just because Twitter is popular it’s suddenly mandatory that it host any and all content. If hacker news became as popular as twitter could the government suddenly start compelling HN to stop censoring off topic conversation and host any and all posts?

Twitter was created by people to serve a certain purpose and for certain conversations and they are within their rights to control the content they host on their machines and on their site.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by Someguywhatever on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @09:54AM (#18075925)
>People blocked on Twitter are free to host their own websites with their own speech.

On paper this is true, but network effects mean you won't be able to interact with the general public UNLESS the general public also moves to your platform as well, which is fairly unlikely.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by mc32 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:19PM (#18072467)
Let's put it this way, let's say George Soros bought it. He then directed the employees who didn't quit to ban all people who are not leftists.

Or, let's say on the other hand the Koch brothers buy it and again, direct employees who have not quit to ban all non-conservative posters.

Would that be okay because they don't owe it to anyone to be a medium for everyone?

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by spunker540 on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @11:44PM (#18072605)
Yeah that’d be okay.

Someone else could create a more neutral site since there’d certainly be a void to fill.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by mc32 on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:21AM (#18072759)
Then, I'm pretty sure your opinion is in the minority. There would be outrage from either side, if affected, I'm sure.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by root_axis on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:39PM (#18077720)
Where is the ambiguity? In your example, a private company was purchased by a private individual and now they legally own it... why shouldn't they legally be allowed to do whatever they want with it?
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by sangnoir on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @03:30AM (#18073567)
Didn't someone make an alt-right twitter and an alt-right Reddit? No-one's complaining - those who don't like it keep away.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by bcheung on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @09:10PM (#18071874)
"An important legal requirement for common carrier as public provider is that it cannot discriminate..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier

"Net neutrality is the principle that [providers] treat all data on the Internet equally, and not discriminate"

"In a "dumb network", the endpoints are thought to be where the intelligence lies, and as such, proponents argue that the network should leave the management and operation of communications and data transfer to the end users, not a government bureau or Internet company."

"Supporters of net neutrality... want to ensure that [companies] cannot screen, interrupt or filter Internet content without a court order."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_neutrality

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by creaghpatr on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:30PM (#18070655)
Same framework as net neutrality except with speech/content instead of bandwidth. Of course, net neutrality isn't en vogue with current lawmakers.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by jonathankoren on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:15PM (#18071369)
But the problem is that it is content and not simply bandwidth. Bandwidth is objectively measured, content isn’t.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by ericd on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @05:53PM (#18070830)
Maybe crawling should be a common utility, with the ranking being left to individual competition, similar to fiber lines owned by utilities and then companies being free to lease those and deal with end customers. As it is, many websites are hostile to new crawlers that don't already have lots of traffic to bring them in exchange, so it's difficult to offer an alternative to Google, even if you can get over the high minimum bar of being able to crawl a significant fraction of the web.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by bduerst on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @06:30PM (#18071103)
Isn't that just creating a duplicate internet then - one that taxpayers have to pay to host instead? That creates a ton of issues around being forced to pay for hosting other people's speech. For example, I don't want to pay to host anti-vaxxer site information but because of the first amendment, this public service can't remove it.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by ericd on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:50PM (#18071534)
Why would you care about the cost to store a copy of sites you disagree with? It's a crawl, it's not the government making value judgements one way or the other. I'm sure the library of congress also contains material you disagree with.

I don't think it would count as a duplicate internet any more than archive.org would.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by bduerst on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:59PM (#18071566)
The library of congress is curated by Selection officers for material value, the internet is not.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by ericd on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @08:45PM (#18071759)
I didn't mean to say that the library of congress was indiscriminate, just that it likely also contains material that you disagree with. And that that doesn't really matter, because it's not the purpose of the repository to contain only non-controversial material.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by bduerst on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @12:08PM (#18077370)
Without an example, I can't agree with you, and no - the point is that the library of congress is curated content, the internet is not.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by ericd on Wednesday September 26, 2018 @05:20PM (#18080385)
Old books from the 1800s with very outdated views on race, sex, etc would be an obvious example.

Edit: and why is curation relevant to the question of whether there should be a common crawl that can be accessed by all, a publicly hosted mirror of the web that can be used to create competing search engines?

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by bduerst on Thursday September 27, 2018 @12:52PM (#18086316)
I really don't care about old books from the 1800s.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by AmericanChopper on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @07:31PM (#18071454)
This is the obvious reason why they have to take the government seriously. The stakes are that they end up heavily regulated.

On a side note, I find it very ironic that a community who so passionately embrace net neutrality are so quick to cry 1A and liberty when it comes to political censorship and bias by the huge internet companies.

Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by sieabahlpark on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @03:48PM (#18069859)
Now you've shown that what they desire is a slippery slope for later.
Re:Google CEO Sundar Pichai to Meet with Top GOP Lawmakers by FireBeyond on Tuesday September 25, 2018 @04:57PM (#18070422)
> So long as they are not regulated as such

And to think, it's the Republican Party that's been anchoring for removing any pretense of net neutrality.

But now it's Bad(TM). Or at least Unfair(TM).