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Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by DanielBMarkham on Monday October 18, 2010 @08:03AM (#1803097)
I'm a pilot, a libertarian, and somebody who believes that it is a fair trade to temporarily trade freedoms for security, such as when governments institute blackout laws during air-raids when the nation is at war.

But this virtual strip-searching is going too far. Somebody needs to be a grownup and stop abusing the public in return for the promise of a risk-free travel experience.

The problem, from a political perspective, is this is one of those "clean water" issues -- an issue with only one side. Who wants to be in favor of dirty water? Yet the real question facing governments is what kind of trade to make between tax revenue and water treatment plants, what kinds of burdens to put on industry to not pollute (too much), etc. The real question is very nuanced and involves lots of trade-offs and discussions about private property rights and the public good. But the problem is, even though it's a trade-off, there's no upside to taking the other side of the issue.

Let's suppose somebody gets elected on the platform to eliminate body scanners. All the scanners get eliminated and the public cheers.

The next month there is a terrible attack -- one that could have been prevented by the use of body scanners.

I know what the logical response is, but what do you think the actual response from the public will be? It's going to be to get rid of that foolish politician who's reckless ways caused so much harm and misery.

And to DavidW's point, yes, I think this is a HN issue, although it is also emotionally-charged. It's a hacker issue because it gets to the heart of all hacking: just because you can do something, should you? If I can create a mind-reading device to stop terrorists, should I? It also addresses the ways people can create organizational systems without balance -- systems that continue growing ad infinitum. I would expect this virtual strip-searching to be only the beginning: as terrorist defeat these (by the use of rectally-planted explosives, as the pilot points out) then government will up the ante and find a way to give rectal exams. They'll have to. It's a one-sided issue.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by davidw on Monday October 18, 2010 @08:35AM (#1803193)
> It's a hacker issue because it gets to the heart of all hacking: just because you can do something, should you?

That's much more of a political problem though, and really is so vague as to make most anything you want a 'hacker issue'.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by lionhearted on Monday October 18, 2010 @12:11PM (#1804008)
A sensible reply, Daniel, but I'm on the other side of the fence. I think hard objects and explosives scanning technology is going to be standard in the future. We've only got primitive and crude versions right now, but I think this sort of scanning technology is the answer to the problem. With good enough technology and alerts system, security at all high risk venues could proceed automatically with a few people monitoring outputs and response teams nearby.

Implemented as well as it could be, this seems like it'll be less intrusive than the current way of lining up for metal detectors. Also, less expensive and less invasive. From the comments, I guess I'm in the minority here, but I'm for this kind of technology.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by Quarrelsome on Monday October 18, 2010 @02:22PM (#1804523)
I'm not sure that I'm convinced that technology is really the answer here. Sure it can work if everyone is scanned and the monitors watched but will that always 100% be the case?

I've worked on scanning systems before for security purposes (festival id tags, I appreciate, a lesser concern) and there are almost always ways around the system, be it accidental or intentional. But if those ways round are abused the technology completely fails to fulfil its intended purpose if that one person is missed.

The issue with airport security and kabooms is can certainly be just that one person who has the kaboom and such an instance would take us right back to square one.

As a brief example might I state that diplomats have immunity from these scanning systems and are allowed to bypass them.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by psyklic on Monday October 18, 2010 @08:18AM (#1803136)
It's a one-sided issue which our government has said that they're gonna fix - small cost to attack, enormous cost to defend. The US had no other choice though. If one vulnerability is found, terrorists will just continue to exploit it, and it will erode trust in our transit networks.

Are you saying we should just let 9/11s happen, and then fix the holes? Are alternative scanning methods just as effective? Wouldn't you prefer that everyone else on your flight is scanned, just to make sure you'll be safe? It's a tricky issue.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by acabal on Monday October 18, 2010 @09:41AM (#1803434)
> Are you saying we should just let 9/11s happen, and then fix the holes?

Isn't that how TSA already operates? Someone sneaks a bomb into their shoe and TSA makes me take my flip-flops off through the metal detector. Someone tries to blow up a plane with "gels" and TSA bans sealed water bottles. Someone stitches a bomb in their underwear and TSA sets up virtual strip-searches.

Until TSA mandates that everyone be stripped naked, anesthetized, and sealed in blast-proof capsules for the length of the journey, there will always be a way to sneak something deadly onto a plane. As terrorists get more clever, TSA will continue to fix the holes the terrorists find with continually more invasive, illogical, and civil-liberty-stripping mandates in the name of safety.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by TallGuyShort on Monday October 18, 2010 @10:04AM (#1803511)
>> Are you saying we should just let 9/11s happen, and then fix the holes?

That's exactly what happens now. The changes in TSA policy come after an attempted attack, and focus on what could have been done in the past to prevent that attack. As a member of the public, I've never seen the TSA actually put meaningful thought into how to make their procedures more effective, only more politically correct and politically 'safe'.

>> Are alternative scanning methods just as effective?

I'd like to point out that a bomber boarded an airplane, tried to attack it, failed, and burned his private parts, and upon landing was met by law enforcement. That's a success, as far as I'm concerned, and an opportunity for some laughs at his expense. It was so hard to get a bomb on an airplane that he took a low-quality, faulty explosive that he couldn't get to work.

>> Wouldn't you prefer that everyone else on your flight is scanned, just to make sure you'll be safe?

Honestly, I'd prefer the police and TSA respect their rights, and that people not live in panic or fear of terrorist attacks. A suicide attack happens so rarely and so unpredictably, so how are my freedoms any more protected if I submit to unreasonable searches?

In my opinion, trained psychological profilers would be much more effective.

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by viraptor on Monday October 18, 2010 @11:39AM (#1803878)
Isn't that the best solution for them (putting people to sleep for the flight)? I'm still waiting to see what will happen when someone plays a terrorist by:

- using broken glass bottle (can be bought in the duty-free area)

- breaking one-time shaving razor you can buy on the airport and making a DIY knife

- stealing kitchen utensils from bars at the airport

- putting lighter gas into a small perfume container which you can take onboard, making spark from a normal battery, using some flamable spray to get more fuel

- disassembling some on board electric device (even stuff like lights) and warning to short it (that should cause some serious panic even if it's pretty safe in reality... who's actually aware of separate circuits?)

etc. at some point, people will start to realise that there are so many dangerous items on the airport itself, you don't need to bring anything with you. What will the TSA limit then?

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by elai on Monday October 18, 2010 @12:09PM (#1804002)
Duty free shops will only be available when you land.
Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by viraptor on Monday October 18, 2010 @01:36PM (#1804384)
Duty free shops would object. A lot. And they're "more important" than travellers in some ways (i.e. they will be heard if they object).
Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by shasta on Monday October 18, 2010 @10:27AM (#1803595)
Yes, and the latest round of terrorists seem to be incapable of detonating anything. You think they're just incompetent, or they've figured out that the damage inflicted is greater with an unsuccessful attempt that generates a flurry of new TSA procedures than with a successful one that just gets attributed to mechanical failure?
Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by jokermatt999 on Monday October 18, 2010 @09:11AM (#1803320)
You're assuming that these measures are foolproof though. These will catch the stupid terrorists, but the smart ones will still get through.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2008/11/the-things...

Re:Pilot Stands Up To TSA And Refuses Full Body Scan by Quarrelsome on Monday October 18, 2010 @02:30PM (#1804551)
> If one vulnerability is found, terrorists will just continue to exploit it, and it will erode trust in our transit networks.

I don't see this. We have had one 9/11. We had one 7/7. Certainly RE: 7/7 that kind of stuff is VERY hard to prevent (no scanning possible) and UK society and public transport has changed _very_ little since this, if not at all. However we are not seeing more 7/7 attacks.

Terrorists are in incredibly limited supply, certainly competent ones (Edinburgh Airport anyone? :D). We should possibly consider that we might see exactly the same number of terrorist attacks even if we had zero security.

It worth considering as opposed to being convinced that the barbarians are _definitely_ at the gates.