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Re:The European Union versus the Internet by NeedMoreTea on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @12:58PM (#18016963)
I also found the reaction interesting because even techies here were overwhelmingly in favour of GDPR. Mainly because it is so similar to data protection that's been in place for 20 years and they have been used to implementing without problem. That included founders and executives within companies. Thanks to the profile of people I know that's been mainly in smaller companies. Most of the negative opinion I heard was that the regulations wouldn't be enforced strongly enough to achieve enough change.

Yet a common US reaction was to view GDPR as something draconian and anti small business, and to deliberately misunderstand that a maximum penalty wasn't going to be the always penalty. Much like this blog post does.

On the copyright proposals those same people here in the EU are unanimously against.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by ApolloFortyNine on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:34PM (#18017364)
>and to deliberately misunderstand that a maximum penalty wasn't going to be the always penalty.

This is the only way to view penalties like this that don't have clearly defined criteria. It's all up to a judge, and when so much is at risk, a company will assume the worse.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by Nursie on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:20PM (#18017788)
A very American view!

This just sort of proves the point the poster was making. People here don't assume that the worst case is going to happen. Most sorts of these laws so far result in initial action taken to help (or force) the company to comply. Fines are usually only considered for those who repeatedly refuse to come into line.

My view of the US is that there are many more aggressive public prosecutors who will swing for maximum penalties, in order to make a name for themselves.

But maybe I just watch too much tv.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by hyperman1 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:41PM (#18017963)
I agree, a very American view.

Nobody but the national regulatory instance of each country can sue, and they are in general not very happy on legal procedures.

In practice, a common Euro-pattern is this: First, a sternly worded private letter is sent to the target company. If that doesn't help, a public statement is made. After that, basic legal procedures for a small amount. The amount gets larger when the abuse is more flagrant and previous messages did not help. When the target company seems to co-operate reasonably well, no legal procedures are even started.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by cortesoft on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:45PM (#18019449)
It isn't about assuming that the worst will always happen, it is just NOT assuming that the worst WON'T happen.

How is that a bad thing to do? Pretending that the worst result couldn't happen is just delusional - it is like people who don't wear seat belts or helmets, or don't buy insurance. Just because something is unlikely doesn't mean you should ignore the risk, especially when the consequences of the unlikely even are so high.

Yes, the maximum penalty is probably pretty unlikely; on the other hand, if you GOT the maximum penalty, it might be a death sentence for your company. When the stakes are that high, you can't just ignore the risk.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @09:22PM (#18020899)
If you are always going to assume that the worst case scenario might happen, you should probably worry about the things that will actually kill you, many of which are far more likely than getting the maximum fine as a small company that is not intentionally violating the law. Something like getting killed in a car crash is much more likely and much higher stakes.
Re:The European Union versus the Internet by Nursie on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @06:20PM (#18019751)
> it is just NOT assuming that the worst WON'T happen.

But it won't. You attempt to comply with the rules, show good faith and you won't be in danger.

It's not a real risk.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by cortesoft on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @07:57PM (#18020449)
You have no way of knowing if it is a real risk or not. The law is the law; all it takes is a shift in power, with a group coming into power that wants to make an example of your company, and suddenly the risk is very real.
Re:The European Union versus the Internet by NeedMoreTea on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @08:56PM (#18020769)
Except we do. One of the EU's laws is that all EU penalties be proportionate [0]. All other laws are subject to that requirement.

So the moment some group "wants to make an example of your company", not that I have ever heard of anyone being made an example of that's remotely akin to US punitive damages awards or 999 year Texas jail sentences, you appeal to the national or EU court. The judge will be delighted to rule the regulator's (or government) actions illegal or disproportionate. It may well also trigger a judicial review.

For an alternative outcome you would require a change in representation at the EU from 27 nations, and repeal of one of the founding principles. Not as unthinkable as the US repealing the constitution, but not very far off.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#European...

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by betterunix2 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:45PM (#18018504)
For what it's worth, an early complaint about GDPR was that it benefited the large, incumbent companies like Google and Facebook at the expense of their smaller competitors.
Re:The European Union versus the Internet by ocdtrekkie on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:46PM (#18017485)
I think the maximum penalty = always penalty sort of misunderstanding tends to appear when programmers look at the law. Technical people tend to look at the laws in a technical way. Does this equal a violation or does it not? If it does, what will it cost? Judicious opinion or "We'll know it when we see it" rarely sits well with those of us who are used to cementing behavior into lines of code.

Existing laws we already operate under have much more severe maximum penalties than people realize, and judges are (relatively) reasonable at applying them correctly. Right here in the US, nearly everyone is technically violating some law every day, the key is ensuring that our justice system has the mechanics in place to deal with clear violators, while having adequate redress for improper application of the law.

The copyright law is much the same. No, memes will not get banned by it. Yes, Google News will have to pay for the content they scrape. No, you will not get hunted down by the copyright gestapo for sending a link to a friend.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by devinhelton on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:02PM (#18017636)
Existing laws we already operate under have much more severe maximum penalties than people realize, and judges are (relatively) reasonable at applying them correctly.

I don't think the system is working well at all. We have a situation where vague laws with severe penalties allow prosecutors to grossly overcharge. This is then used to coerce the accused into waiving their rights to a trial, in return for the certainty of a more limited punishment.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by Tomte on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:08PM (#18017691)
In America.

In Germany "deals" are very much not liked by the law profession, and only a very limited form of it has been put into law. And even that is very sharply debated in the profession.

Add to it that prosecutors actually do look for mitigating circumstances, and do not regularly appeal a verdict that they feel is a bit too low, thus preventing the appellate court from handing down a harsher sentence, making the appeal risk-free for the defendant.

It's not all roses here, but you also shouldn't assume that this "either plead guilty and accept five years or risk three hundred years" is a universal property of judicial systems.

Re:The European Union versus the Internet by Nursie on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:29PM (#18017857)
To echo the other comment - this isn't familiar to me in the UK either.

Guilty pleas do usually result in lower tariffs, but AFAICT we have little to none of the horse-trading that's continually portrayed on US television.