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Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @12:37PM (#18016737)
> That telegraphs a pretty lenient stance on misstatements that aren't completely fabricated

American commercial law goes out of its way to avoid criminalizing stupidity. At a certain level, the difference between a genius and a madman is the genius was correct. They are indifferentiable without the benefit of hindsight.

The nail in Elon's coffin (or lack thereof) will probably revolve around the degree to which he documented his animus towards short sellers in the days leading up to the misstatement.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by abalone on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @12:54PM (#18016925)
Nah, it's clear Musk hates short sellers. That's not the issue. Nor is his desire to hurt them. The question is whether he had scienter when misstating the finality of the deal he was negotiating.
Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:38PM (#18017412)
> That's not the issue. Nor is his desire to hurt them.

That's a huge issue. If he made his misstatements with the intent of hurting short sellers, that's criminal fraud. If he just made a material misstatement, with no intent to harm anyone, it's a civil case.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by abalone on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @02:16PM (#18017754)
You inserted "intent". That is the key question, not whether he dislikes short sellers.

Every CEO dislikes short sellers, and nearly every CEO makes "material misstatements" now and then. What separates that from fraud is what the SEC focused on in their comment: scienter.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by gamblor956 on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @03:37PM (#18018438)
You keep throwing around the word "scienter" without understanding what it is.

Scienter just means intent. It's literally just the fancy legal term for intent.

Thus, it matters very much that Musk has a history of trashing short sellers and wishing harm to them, because they can use that history to establish that his tweet was made with the intent to defraud market participants and materially affect the price of Tesla's stock.

Especially the "funding secured" bit. You don't say "secured" if it's not really secured. There is no legal interpretation where "secured" is a harmless mistake.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by abalone on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @05:15PM (#18019203)
I have been using scienter and intentionality interchangeably. I think it is you who is throwing around fancy-sounding terms like "legal interpretation" without really knowing what they mean.

Again, every CEO dislikes short sellers and literally everything they do to talk up the company hurts shorts, by definition. You don't need any tweets to establish that. It's a given. And every CEO misstates things and makes errors and in big companies every statement moves the stock price. The issue is intent.

What you are doing is focusing on the misstatement, adding in fancy sounding terms like "legal interpretation", and whipping that up into intent to defraud. But as the SEC explicitly addressed in the cited comment, they set the "state of mind" bar higher than mere misstatements. You are going to need more than that to establish scienter.

Your fancy term aside, there actually are other interpretations of his comment. He may have been overzealous. He may have overestimated his investors intent.

Let's look at it another way. Musk is a reasonably smart guy. How far was he going to get with this alleged scheme to intentionally defraud the market? How long until everyone realized the funds were not actually secured and the fraud was revealed? Like, 2 hours? That would be the stupidest fraud in the history of frauds. The conclusion is that, perhaps he actually believed the deal would come together. Erroneously, but erroneous statements are not enough for fraud; the key factor is state of mind.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by vel0city on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:32PM (#18017329)
> The nail in Elon's coffin (or lack thereof) will probably revolve around the degree to which he documented his animus towards short sellers in the days leading up to the misstatement.

That and if he's able to show he really thought funding could have been secured but fell through. IIRC we still don't know the full story on that.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by JumpCrisscross on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @01:37PM (#18017388)
> if he's able to show he really thought funding could have been secured but fell through

"Funding secured" and "funding to be secured" are materially different terms. The point of "secured" is it's been bindingly, definitively agreed upon in a way that makes falling through very, very difficult.

His best defense is, absurdly, arguing a seasoned CEO doesn't understand what "funding secured" means. He might be about to inject enough doubt into a jury to avoid criminal charges, but I don't think that will outweigh the preponderance of evidence which is required for a civil judgement.

Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by Proziam on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:01PM (#18018621)
Fortunately for him, he's an engineer with thumbs and a screen, not a lawyer. I don't think it's particularly likely that this goes nuclear on Musk or Tesla but it's definitely absurd, as you said.
Re:Tesla Faces U.S. Criminal Probe Over Musk Statements by dragontamer on Tuesday September 18, 2018 @04:54PM (#18019029)
He's a CEO and is fully responsible for all matters of Tesla finances. If Mr. Musk is too ignorant of the law to properly run a company, then he will be removed.

But that's the SEC's investigation. The deal with the article today, is that the DoJ... aka the FBI is beginning to get involved. This suggests that the FBI is concerned with CRIMINAL issues with regards to that tweet. Criminal penalties looks unlikely IMO, but who knows what the FBI manages to dig up?

In either case, the FBI looking into it doesn't look good at all. If anything, it helps solidifies the SEC (non-criminal) case of negligence.