News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by rayiner on Friday September 14, 2018 @11:33AM (#17987960)
> Look around, and you can see the lingering effects of the financial crisis just about everywhere — everywhere, that is, except in the most commonly cited economic statistics. So who are you going to believe: Those statistics, or your own eyes?

Not an auspicious start, David. People believe lots of things that aren't true, for example that crime is going up. That's why reliance on objective measures is crucial.

Of course, the larger point about using the right measures is well taken. But switching to new measures to validate your preconceived gut feeling is fraught with peril. For example, labor force participation rate, which measures the non-institutional population 16 and older, is down to 62% from a peak of 67% in 2000: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/article/labor-force-partic... (from 67% to 62%). Is it because discouraged workers are leaving the workforce? Not really--the labor force participation rate of high-school and college-aged people (ages 16-24) is down dramatically. But the rate among those aged 25-55 is down just a few points.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by lavrov on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:04PM (#17988320)
The point that he's making is not that individual observation should trump objective measures, but the epistemic claim that if what we perceive contradicts those measures, it's worth interrogating the validity of those measures.

I don't think that the particular example that you're giving is "fraught with peril". Note the lack of an upper bound on the labor force participation rate that you cite - 16+ includes people of retirement age, whereas the measure given in the article shows that the official unemployment rate for men 25-55 is just 1/3 of the "true" unemployment rate that includes disaffected workers. This is significant.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by rory096 on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:05PM (#17988917)
>whereas the measure given in the article shows that the official unemployment rate for men 25-55 is just 1/3 of the "true" unemployment rate that includes disaffected workers. This is significant.

Using that as the "true" unemployment rate is, frankly, bullshit. The number they're citing is the OECD "employment rate"[0][1], defined as the employed share divided by the total population in that demographic. Thus it includes the disabled, stay-at-home-parents, the leisure class, those enrolled in education, and anyone else who is not working but has no desire to do so. The decline is almost entirely driven by the reduction in labor force participation rate from 97+% in that demographic in the 1960s to 88.8% today.[2] Is it unreasonable to expect males may on average voluntarily spend 3 years outside the labor force during their prime years?

If you want to count discouraged workers, use U4 — which currently stands at 4.1% vs. the U3 at 3.9%.[3] (U3 is 3.0% for the demographic in question.[4]) U6, which adds all other marginally attached workers and those employed only part-time who'd like to be full-time, stands at 7.4%.

If your concern is falling LFPR, say so. If your concern is discouraged workers, use U4/U6. But don't change the denominator on the unemployment rate from the labor force to the whole population and act like it's some huge hidden increase the authorities have been concealing from us.

[0] https://data.oecd.org/emp/employment-rate.htm

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LREM25MAUSA156S

[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LRAC25MAUSM156S

[3] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t15.htm

[4] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNU04000061

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by lavrov on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:57PM (#17989864)
I don't agree that using the OECD employment rate is bullshit. The argument is not that at a single point, the fact that this other measure of unemployment is much higher than the standard measure shows that the economy is not healthy, the argument is that the divergence between the OECD employment rate and the standard measure indicates that the economy is unwell. If you deny this, then you're forced to argue that somehow the number of "disabled, stay-at-home-parents, the leisure class, those enrolled in education, and anyone else who is not working but has no desire to do so" has increased within the same demographic (25-55 males, so generally post-school), while wages have remained flat.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by rory096 on Friday September 14, 2018 @03:56PM (#17990399)
>this other measure of unemployment is much higher than the standard measure shows that the economy is not healthy

No it doesn't. Aside from it being a nonsensical measure of 'health', the overall 'employment rate' is well above pre-1990 rates (as women have continued to enter the workforce).[0]

>If you deny this, then you're forced to argue that somehow the number of "disabled, stay-at-home-parents, the leisure class, those enrolled in education, and anyone else who is not working but has no desire to do so" has increased within the same demographic (25-55 males, so generally post-school),

Of course it has. Being a stay-at-home-dad was unthinkable in 1950. Post-graduate education is increasingly common, as is mid-life career switching. I can think of many reasons why we shouldn't expect a 98% labor force participation rate from that demographic in this century.

[0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LREM25TTUSM156S

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by lavrov on Saturday September 15, 2018 @02:38PM (#17995494)
You misread my comment - I'm saying that the argument is not that the fact that this other measure of unemployment is much higher than the standard measure shows that the economy is not healthy, but that the sudden divergence over the past decade hasn't been plausibly explained by anything except an increase in disaffected working-aged males.

>Of course it has. Being a stay-at-home-dad was unthinkable in 1950. Post-graduate education is increasingly common, as is mid-life career switching. I can think of many reasons why we shouldn't expect a 98% labor force participation rate from that demographic in this century.

All of the points that you raised should not show such a sudden effect in the past < 10 years.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by rory096 on Sunday September 16, 2018 @09:48AM (#17998915)
What sudden divergence?

https://i.imgur.com/WZaIpjL.png

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by byproxy on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:17PM (#17988457)
It was pretty interesting (and disquieting) to see a linear trend.

I don't know how the statistics are gathered, but I wonder if they separate those who wish to/need to work from those who don't. For those who have given up searching, that is.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by smogcutter on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:45PM (#17988734)
> I wonder if they separate those who wish to/need to work from those who don't. For those who have given up searching, that is.

Indeed they do. The rate you most commonly see tries to measure unemployment in the active labor force. If you're not actively looking for work, you're not counted as unemployed. There are other measures which do count "discouraged workers" and others not usually included. They're much higher.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by byproxy on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:49PM (#17988774)
Yea, I was talking about further filtering "discouraged workers", or those who've given up searching for work. I think it'd be interesting to apply the "wish to/need to" filter to those who are employed, too!

This article[1] gets into a bit, but

"Some men choose not to work and can afford not to. That’s great, Furman says. But for many, probably most, dropping out of the work force not only means a lack of income but also a loss of the dignity that comes with not working."

still sounds like conjecture, to me.

[1]: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2016/08/15/men-not-a...

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by rory096 on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:39PM (#17988689)
>Discouraged workers are a subset of persons marginally attached to the labor force. The marginally attached are those persons not in the labor force who want and are available for work, and who have looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months, but were not counted as unemployed because they had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. Among the marginally attached, discouraged workers were not currently looking for work specifically because they believed no jobs were available for them or there were none for which they would qualify.

https://www.bls.gov/cps/lfcharacteristics.htm#discouraged

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by smsm42 on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:46PM (#17988742)
True but has a common failure mode, aka "how X won the election if I don't know a single person who voted for him?". It's rather hard to directly perceive a diverse 300+M trillion-dollar economy without resorting to some aggregating measures.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by enraged_camel on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:45PM (#17988740)
>>The point that he's making is not that individual observation should trump objective measures, but the epistemic claim that if what we perceive contradicts those measures, it's worth interrogating the validity of those measures.

I don't know if I agree with this. I mean okay, if your house is on fire and your thermometer is showing a comfortable 75 F, you should probably question your thermometer. But in the overwhelming majority of situations, especially involving extremely complex phenomena such as a national economy, one should absolutely not trust their perception or use it to question the validity of empirical evidence that has been collected.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by moorhosj on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:59PM (#17989340)
Here is an example:

On the first Friday of every month when the Employment Situation report is released, we get new analysis on jobs created, hours worked and hourly wages. This is great information, the only issue is that the hours and wage information is an average, not a median [2].

If economic reality changes to a point where citizens/politicians/economists become concerned with income inequality, this measure begins to lose it's significance. Average wages could increase while median wages fall. It is still "empirical evidence" but it isn't necessarily measuring what we think or want, labor force participation rates before/after women joined the workforce is an example. We should always be questioning the validity of our economic measures over time.

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/07/us-nonfarm-payrolls-aug-2018... [2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.b.htm

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by lavrov on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:59PM (#17988872)
Why not? Determining how we measure the health of our economy, and implicitly, what we want to optimize for, is a political process, not simply an objective, scientific one.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by e_d_e_v_at on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:11PM (#17988388)
I think there is another issue at stake, which is failure to report on the ground level. For many crime statistics, local precinct data is likely used. And this is also anecdote, but having lived in a transitional neighborhood, where police-community relationships have not improved, underreporting is rampant, and everyone is complicit. Criminals/low income folks don't want the hassle of police intervention. Police precincts want low numbers so that they can prove they are working effectively. Residents who might actually be interested in police intervention have the competing incentive that lower crime rates positively impact housing values. All that to say "objective measures" are hard in the cases where they are possible.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by floatrock on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:32PM (#17988609)
> But switching to new measures to validate your preconceived gut feeling is fraught with peril.

This was explored, but most of the article was about enhancing existing stats:

> She argues — rightly, I think — that the government should not focus on creating wholly new statistics. It should instead change and expand the ones that are already followed closely.

This is basically Anscombe's Quartet -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anscombe%27s_quartet -- four completely different sets of points that have the same mean, variance, linear regression, and other stats but plotted out represent drastically different realities.

But instead of abstract datasets, we're saying drastically different underlying economic circumstances for different populations may be reported with the same GDP number.

So a single summary statistic "GDP is up!" without more detailed breakdowns can mean either "everyone is doing better!" or "the investor-class is making bank while everyone else is stagnant or falling behind". The point of the article is one of those seems to explain the populist anger, and our focus on the single summary statistic creates cognitive dissonance and makes the problem worse when people say to themselves "hey, this shit doesn't match what I'm struggling with everyday."

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by zwkrt on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:06PM (#17988334)
To play devil's advocate: is the fact that 16-24 year olds hold drastically fewer jobs than in the past really something that can be brushed off? On the face of it that sounds like people who would otherwise be starting their careers are not able to get a foothold, or otherwise are having to start much later than they otherwise would have. Combined with increased debt load, that statistic seems more like a harbinger of worse things to come.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by EpicEng on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:10PM (#17988384)
>To play devil's advocate: is the fact that 16-24 year olds hold drastically fewer jobs than in the past really something that can be brushed off?

Or perhaps their parents are better off, more people are going to college, so fewer of them are forced to work menial jobs to pay the bills. I have no idea if that's true, but that's kind of the point; you have to dig deeper.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by kurthr on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:25PM (#17988535)
We know that the individual and family incomes for those in the lower 50% (or as much as 90%) of the income distribution have been falling (after inflation) for the last 30 years. So it's not just that their parents are better off... because they are flat to down.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by sokoloff on Friday September 14, 2018 @01:32PM (#17989148)
I don't see that in the figures that I've gone looking for.

https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

suggests that, in inflation adjusted terms, most workers wages are up a modest amount (6%) since 1979, while the 10th percentile workers have declined by 5% in that period.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by kurthr on Saturday September 15, 2018 @03:31AM (#17993404)
The telling plots are figures 2&3, which show wages as stagnant, but not falling during the 2008-10 recession. That is because it plots the wages of those who are working (full time?) and does not account for employment loss or underemployment.

The employment to population ratio has fallen 5-6% over the same time period (and 10% from its peak) . It may be recovering somewhat now, but it's not part of the charts and not close to the peak.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment-to-population_ratio

Worse still, comparing to household income, you see that a higher employment ratio is necessary just to maintain the income. That causes childcare, prepared food, and transportation expenses to rise faster than inflation... because even if prices are constant, more people need them. That's ignoring the falling percentage of jobs with insurance and pensions that that also reduce total compensation... it also ignores stock options.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by jimmydddd on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:29PM (#17988573)
The 16-18 year old segment of that group is high school kids. In my area, it appears that there are a lot fewer jobs avaialable than when I was that age. For example, my friends and I were all "paper boys" delivering various newspapers. Now I notice middle aged people flinging the papers out of cars. We also used to mow lawns and shovel snow. Those jobs are all taken by professional landscapers. Also, many parents would rather their high school kids did school-related activities than some low wage job.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by convivialdingo on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:38PM (#17988678)
My sons all had trouble finding jobs at 16. Fewer workplaces will hire at that age. Even fast food and other basic labor hires fewer teens these days.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by pedasmith on Friday September 14, 2018 @02:09PM (#17989436)
As long as we're arguing statistics with personal anecdotes: the dairy queen my younger kid worked at was about 80% teenager, with an attrition rate of wow!. The older kids' jobs at an upscale fast food is also easily 50%+ teenager. Both kids were pretty much hired on the spot with no previous employment.
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by byproxy on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:13PM (#17988414)
Could it also be that programs are in place to help students so that they don't have to work while attending school?
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by Jtsummers on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:25PM (#17988536)
AKA, student loans. Which create a massive economic drag for those who participate in those programs over a large portion of their working years, and delays their entry into retirement (or increases the demand on community/city/state/federal support programs when they do retire).
Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by kurthr on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:33PM (#17988616)
There were free school lunches/breakfast and Aid for Dependent Children 30 years ago... those haven't gone away or improved. If anything welfare reform in the 90s reduced low income food security. Maybe you're talking about student loans, but that seems to make the problem worse since the unemployment rate is still higher into the 25 range where they should be getting jobs from their education.

It was common for 12-18yr olds to work part time at groceries, fast food, retail, theaters, delivery to earn gas money or save for a car or college/trade. That is largely gone. Those jobs seem to have been taken by desperate adults and seniors.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by kadendogthing on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:55PM (#17988833)
> But switching to new measures to validate your preconceived gut feeling is fraught with peril.

That's literally the exact opposite of what the author did. In fact the author painstakingly laid out how the government is doing exactly what you've accused the author of doing.

There are statistics that are being ignored because it does not fit the narrative.

Re:We’re Measuring the Economy All Wrong by smsm42 on Friday September 14, 2018 @12:43PM (#17988723)
> the labor force participation rate of high-school and college-aged people (ages 16-24) is down dramatically

Is to be expected. Easier access to college, general push to get a degree no matter what, plus raising cost of labour (minimal wage, healthcare regulations, etc.) equals drop in participation from youngsters.