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Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by hatmatrix on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:35PM (#17975211)
> current U.S. policies on science are extremely unfavorable to foreign researchers

To U.S. researchers also - the proposal funding rate is so low on account of the resource/PI ratio that many U.S. researchers are moving to Europe where there is greater promise of hard funding.

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by arcanus on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:45PM (#17975260)
The USA spends more on R+D in aggregate and more as a percentage of GDP than the European Union[1]. It is not substantially easier to get a Professorship or permanent research appointment in Europe than the USA, at least generally speaking. Without data to back it up, I don't see how this comment holds up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_...

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by tacomonstrous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:54PM (#17975297)
What percentage is allocated to basic research? The US government is continuing to abdicate its responsibility towards funding it.
Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by dnautics on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:07PM (#17975648)
what is the US government's responsibility here? There are very good arguments that government funding of science has actually been a problem, starting with the big picture:

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/saving-science

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by dnautics on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:00PM (#17979630)
Lots of down votes but no explanation. I'll put a counterargument. Lots of good science has been privately funded: A lot of things in the early 20th and 19th centuries, Salk Sabin and the cure for polio, Peter Mitchell and solving the chemiosmotic effect, the entire HHMI, etc.

Do we actually need a lot of science? A lot of the low hanging fruit has been picked and it seems to me like the next advances will require deep reflection and study that isn't compatible with the tenure-track-driven-by-grant-receipt / grant-receipt-driven-by-performance-on-other-grants cycle of government driven science. At the same time, if government does anything else the scientific endeavor it funds will devolve into an exercise in channeling funds to a few golden children that are selected.... How? And will be detached from any reasonable standard of good governance and accountability.

So I challenge someone to explain why the us government has a responsibility to fund science, where that authority comes from, and how acceptable standards of accountability will be established.

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by jabl on Friday September 14, 2018 @05:20AM (#17985821)
I didn't downvote your contribution, but I suspect a lot of the downvotes were due to your argument being, at best, tangentially related to the point made in the article you linked to.

So the article makes the claim that left to its own devices, science wanders off into the weeds, spending a lot of money and brainpower on things which have absolutely no foreseeable application to the real world (e.g. stuff like string theory). FWIW, I do have sympathy for this viewpoint; while I think there is a place for purely curiosity driven blue-sky basic science, perhaps a smaller pie of the total R&D spending ought to be spent on such things.

From this you then conclude that government financing of science is bad (which goes against the econ 101 reason why the state must shoulder some of the R&D responsibility, so I won't bother to discuss that further here), whereas the article makes the opposite conclusion, namely that the state should take a much more hands-on goal-oriented approach to funding science (e.g. "get our boys to the moon before the commies").

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by vkou on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:04AM (#17976619)
Does me building a CRUD app for an internal business process at an advertising firm fall under this category of R&D?
Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by privong on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:55PM (#17975303)
> the proposal funding rate is so low on account of the resource/PI ratio that many U.S. researchers are moving to Europe where there is greater promise of hard funding.

Funding rates are low in many (all?) fields of science in the US, but I agree with @arcanus that some data showing US researchers moving to Europe is warranted.

In my field (astronomy), jobs in the US are tough to come by, but jobs in Europe are generally even more difficult to get. There seem to be fewer jobs in Europe and those jobs are often reserved for people who are already "in the system" and worked at the hiring institution. So many of those jobs to go people who've put in their dues by hanging around, rather than hiring the best people.

Europe does have large European Research Council (ERC) grants which are typically a few million Euros per award. If you win one of those, you're good to go and can fund a sizable research group (at least in astronomy) and can probably use that as leverage to get a faculty job. But those grants are tough to come by.

I can't speak for other fields, but the vast majority of people I've met in astronomy that are moving to Europe are doing so because they're from Europe and want to head home. But the availability of research/faculty jobs there is not good, compared to the US.

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by tacomonstrous on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @09:53PM (#17975294)
Yes, for instance, the NSF's budget has been static in nominal terms since the Bush years (or at least that's what the program manager told me the last time.i was on a panel). Getting a grant, especially for young researchers looking to establish a track record, is very difficult in this environment.
Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by rsj_hn on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:49PM (#17975845)
Now, I must revise and extend my remarks. I found this site: https://www.aaas.org/page/historical-trends-federal-rd

From which you can download R&D spending as a percent of GDP in an excel spreadsheet. They also have nice breakdowns for research, development, and facilities.

If you look at total Federal R&D (all of the 3 above), it has indeed declined as a percent of GDP (although not in real terms).

1976: 1.23% 1986: 1.2% 1996: 0.89% 2006: 0.99% 2016: 0.81%

Then there is a plunge:

2017: 0.67% 2018: 0.71%

but the plunge comes with an asterisk: "Beginning in FY 2017, a new official definition of R&D has been adopted by federal agencies. Late-stage development, testing, and evaluation programs, primarily within the Defense Department, are no longer counted as R&D. "

So, it's fair to say Federal R&D spending is at least stagnant and probably in a slow decline as a percent of GDP.

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by rsj_hn on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:41PM (#17975797)
OK, but the NSF research budget (7 billion) is small potatoes compared to the NIH (37 Billion per year), and DOD (70 Billion). And it's about the same as the Department of Energy (7 Billion, not including the national labs).

There is plethora of other Federal agencies that fund research, such as the EPA, NIST, NASA, Federal Aviation Administration, Food and Drug Administration, even the Bureau of Land Management is in on the act. The VA funds research in prosthetics. The Health and Human Services department (including CDC) funds research.

As best I can tell, total Federal outlays for research are about 120 Billion. https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ap_18_...

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by tacomonstrous on Thursday September 13, 2018 @03:48AM (#17976803)
>but the NSF research budget (7 billion) is small potatoes compared to the NIH

Exactly! And they are the main organization for funding non-medical basic science in the nation.

Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by rsj_hn on Thursday September 13, 2018 @06:14PM (#17983148)
I see, so is your argument not that we need more total federal dollars for research, but that they should be shifted away from the other organizations and towards the NSF?
Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by hedvig on Thursday September 13, 2018 @08:04AM (#17977918)
Where does that funding come from? Why, your pocket. Imagine if the 1% who pays the 50% of that had that money back, how much better our society would be.
Re:China now the most prolific contributor to physical scien... by neuromantik8086 on Thursday September 13, 2018 @12:59PM (#17980233)
Yup. The stats at the bottom of this page are fairly depressing:

http://homepages.rpi.edu/~newbeh/WhyFundScience.html