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Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:14PM (#17962422)
> Americans spend about $30,000 per student a year—nearly twice as much as the average developed country.

This narrative needs to die.

Hear me out before judging...

Yes, University is expensive! But - a large portion of the numbers you see thrown around include living expenses! The same living expenses a student would incur if they were not attending University.

The predominant reason for this is students are still today largely encouraged to be Professional Students, ie. full time students who do not work, or work very little.

This mandates their living expenses having to come from elsewhere - either parents, or loans! No person should be taking out loans to eat at Taco Bell... or buy toilet paper.

Instead, we need to shift the focus away from encouraging Professional Students, but rather we should encourage Professionals who attend University.

Not only will our youth gain more valuable and tangible life-long skills and experience working full-time, but their education can become a more significant compliment to their ascension to adulthood. Working well with others, balancing a bank account, paying bills, working on real-world problems, and more!

It will take longer to gain their degree, but it will become more valuable and appreciated in the process. Graduating students will have actual skills and experience industry needs, not just academic and homework skills.

At the top of it all, they'll be graduating with much less, or no debt - since working full-time during school would have been paying the bills, buying that Taco Bell and toilet paper, and more.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by pwthornton on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:46PM (#17962701)
The market is not looking to hire a bunch more unskilled 18 year olds. If the U.S. military wasn't essentially a workforce development program for unskilled 18-year-olds, we would have an even bigger glut.

Your argument is flawed.

This may be true for master's degrees, where it makes sense to work full time and take courses part time, but the idea that it makes sense for a bunch of 18-year-olds to try to compete over a bunch of minimum wage jobs doesn't seem like a great solution. Most jobs for 18 year olds cannot over living expenses and college tuition.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:59PM (#17962795)
Working professional doesn't necessarily mean bachelor-degree professionals.

There are plenty of places that hire students full-time, for interships or full positions. Students can even get unskilled jobs - nothing wrong with that.

Working at McDonald's, possibly working you way up to shift leader, team leader or manager is perfectly acceptable.

Just so that you work full-time.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by fzeroracer on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:04PM (#17962846)
You're extremely out of touch with the modern day job market and issues students face.

There's zero to very little career advancement while working minimum wage jobs. Minimum wage jobs won't even cover the cost of rent in most states, let alone the full cost of living and the cost of college. Saying that there are 'plenty of places' is also outright wrong considering the competition for minimum wage jobs is harsh; it's not just students that are in the pool.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:19PM (#17962971)
You're talking to a student who's spent 15 years attending community college and then University while working several full-time jobs to get to where I am today.

Don't tell me I'm out of touch when I'm living exactly what I'm preaching. Don't tell me it's impossible when I'm doing exactly what I advocate for.

It's time to change the University system... and standing here and saying these things are too hard to fix is why it's so broken.

The solution isn't more tax-payer subsidies... it's fixing what we expect out of Universities, and what we expect out of students.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by fzeroracer on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:25PM (#17963030)
And you're talking to someone that went through it all the same. Just because it's worked out for you doesn't make your experience the norm for all students. If you're expecting all students to spend 15+ years working just to get through their degree then I would argue that system is just as fucked up as the one we currently have.

The solution is to make college free for students and wipe away student loan debt. You're not going to fix the expectations, and even if you did that doesn't solve the mess we're in right now, does it?

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:43PM (#17963191)
Why do we need a solution "right now"? Why can't we take the time to get it right - instead of applying just another band-aid that will need further fixing a few years down the road. Enough band-aids...

Not everyone needs to attend University and get a shiny degree - we need to stop that narrative while we're at it. There's plenty of trades that pay well and are in high demand. There's nothing wrong with being a blue collar worker, and we need to, as a society, stop thumbing our nose at it.

I assert making college free for students has two effects:

1) Makes the experience less valuable for the individual. 2) Increases taxpayer burden for largely frivolous degree programs.

Number one is because without "skin in the game", it's difficult to appreciate what you have. How many of us look back and truly appreciate High School classes? They were free for most of us... but it was just something you had to do to get on with your life. You weren't there because you wanted to be. You weren't hungry to learn, and you certainly don't remember every detail from 11th grade literature class, nor are you applying those experiences to your work today. We risk turning University into the same experience, and in the process we devalue bachelor degree programs more-so than they already are. That's not to say University should spin you into massive debt - we need to fix that too, but I refer back to my original assertions about encouraging (or mandating) full-time employment while attending school.

Number two is because, imo, there's a large number of degree programs that should not capture taxpayer funding or offer loans. If you're going to major in psychology, you almost certainly should continue through to a master's program or higher - if you stop with a bachelors, your job prospects are extremely limited. If you're going to major in art history - we need to be realistic with expectations... you're probably not going to find a job in that field very easily if at all.

We do our students a disservice by brainwashing everyone into believing going to University and graduating in 4 years with a shiny bachelors degree is the only way to earn a decent living. Reality is all too often the opposite - people graduating after 5-7 years with degrees industry doesn't want and zero experience in what industry expects, only to find out students can't secure well-paying jobs several years after leaving University. It's no surprise really.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by fzeroracer on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:51PM (#17963254)
Ah, there it is. 'Largely frivolous degree programs'. Not everyone can (or should!) be in STEM, the point of higher education is that having an educated populace with a wide variety of topics is good for the overall health of your country. Regardless if it's art history or psychology, a healthy nation needs a balance of educated individuals.

And to address your first posit: You would be objectively wrong. It is a remarkably ignorant America-centric viewpoint considering many other nations and countries do in fact have free college for their individuals. It does not devalue the experience at all. Why is it that we can't learn through what other nations have done?

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by overeater on Wednesday September 12, 2018 @11:16AM (#17969603)
It sounds like your two options are that people should 1) do trades: some unpleasant, strenuous work in physically dangerous conditions, for about 10 years hustling day and night before your body gives out for $50K/year? 2) have the government pay for degrees that some committee deems valuable?

That seems completely wrong to me. And this is based on the implicit assumption that prospective students don't know how to use the internet, make informed decisions, get advice from parents or other grown ups. It sounds like you're saying that college students are completely gullible and are getting degrees for bad reasons and you know better than them, for their own future. And that immigrant parents who encourage their kids to go to college are also uninformed. Come on.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by fzeroracer on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:47PM (#17962710)
Okay, so where are these professional jobs going to come from? Last I checked unpaid internships still exist and are a blight for many industries, and although companies would gladly take advantage of free student labor this solves none of the problems with student debt. For other industries finding jobs related to your career while in college can be incredibly difficult; even back when I was in Uni I was in an area where there were zero opportunities for software development internships.

Additionally how do you expect students to balance out both work and college? To draw back into my experiences I frequently would have to spend 3-4 hours after class every day working on projects, doing homework and studying. Time that would seep into my weekends and beyond. Combine that with a full time job and you have a fairly high stress environment.

Other countries have students going to university full time without a problem. So then why is it uniquely an issue in America?

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by vkou on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:37PM (#17962623)
> Yes, University is expensive! But - a large portion of the numbers you see thrown around include living expenses! The same living expenses a student would incur if they were not attending University.

Nearly all American universities require their students to live in dorms for the first X years of their undergrad.

You can be exempted from this requirement if you are dirt-poor, or are married. [1]

If you are a middle class, unmarried 18 year-old, you are forced to undertake this expense - even if you have the option of living at home, or somewhere cheaper.

It's a blatant money grab. Yes, there are advantages to dorm living, but also lots of disadvantages.

[1] Apparently, all the nonesense about fraternity with your students, and learning independence, and students living in dorms having better grades flies out the window if you're married. Huh. It's almost like it's a thin justification for the university spending millions of dollars on building housing.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:00PM (#17962808)
This isn't true for all Universities - and for those where it's still an outdated requirement, we should push to change this. Student housing is a rip-off.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by vkou on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:58PM (#17963310)
What's happening is the converse - more and more universities are instituting this requirement. After all, the fancy dorms they built aren't going to pay for themselves, if they don't get a captive tenant base.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Retric on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:24PM (#17962512)
'Living expenses' charged by schools are insanely inflated.

~3 months of food and shelter don't cost ~7k when you have roommates.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:26PM (#17962529)
I certainly don't dispute that - it's borderline criminal what the University-sanctioned housing charges - particularly when they stack up to 5 people in a single unit!

However, in my experience, most students live off-campus these days. There's just not enough student housing, and it's a terrible deal anyhow.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by xvector on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:34PM (#17962590)
> However, in my experience, most students live off-campus these days.

Can you source this statement? I know at UCB there were some students that lived off-campus but the vast majority lived in campus dorms IIRC.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by Alupis on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:55PM (#17962765)
My experience is with UC Davis and CSUS, both of which have dramatic shortages of student housing for their over 35,000 student population at each school.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by amreact on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:48PM (#17962715)
At UAH (University of Alabama in Huntsville) they have started requiring first-year students to live in the dorms. Not sure if they require second-year students to.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by LeftTurnSignal on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @04:09PM (#17962890)
They require that here too. If you live in town or within a certain area you can get exempt from it if you're parents sign some papers.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by ryandrake on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:35PM (#17962600)
Maybe it’s different now, but when I went to university, costly on-campus housing was mandatory up until your 4th (Senior) year.
Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by aidenn0 on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:45PM (#17962696)
It varies greatly from school to school.

Where I went, they didn't even guarantee housing to Freshmen, where my wife went, first 2 years were mandatory on-campus living.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by sofaofthedamned on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:18PM (#17962455)
It's a good point tbf - i'm in the UK and my partner is in academia, we disagree on politics massively.

One thing we agree on is that universities should be a place of constant learning - less pressure on doing it when you're 19-22, and more like your National Insurance payments as an adult should go towards being able to go to the local Uni and using these credits for learning.

Re:Why Is College in America So Expensive? by jeremyjh on Tuesday September 11, 2018 @03:17PM (#17962444)
TFA acknowledges this but points out that we still lead the world (other than Luxembourg)when taking out those expenses.