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Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by int_19h on Sunday September 09, 2018 @09:25PM (#17948769)
Red Terror was entirely about a perceived existential threats, and didn't make any claims of sub-humanity of those targeted. Was it not a genocide?
Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by ksdale on Sunday September 09, 2018 @10:53PM (#17949087)
This is a quote from the wikipedia page about the Red Terror, from the chief of the Ukrainian Cheka:

"Do not look in the file of incriminating evidence to see whether or not the accused rose up against the Soviets with arms or words. Ask him instead to which class he belongs, what is his background, his education, his profession. These are the questions that will determine the fate of the accused. That is the meaning and essence of the Red Terror."

You're right, it's not literally saying they're subhuman, but it seems pretty close. Actions are irrelevant, only identity matters. That doesn't have anything to do with perceived threats. Only a crazy person would think that someone of a certain class was a threat regardless of their actions unless they believed that there were implicit differences that basically amounted to those of different class not deserving life. And yeah I think it's definitely a genocide.

It's very similar to the genocide in Cambodia where they killed people who wore glasses (in addition to all the others) because they assumed that if they wore glasses it must be because they were literate, and all intellectuals were the enemies of the working class. We read an account of a man who had been a leftist but was sent to a camp because of his glasses. Once again, they didn't literally say people were subhuman, but they sought to attribute fundamental differences to something as superficial as eyesight.

In my first comment, I was mostly talking about people coming to believe that a group of people was fundamentally different in a way that common decency no longer applies, that you no longer give them even the consideration you would give criminals, you just send them off to die because they are irredeemable for something as stupid as what family they were born into or whether or not they wore glasses.

Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by int_19h on Monday September 10, 2018 @12:41AM (#17949429)
Class, education, profession are mostly about actions, actually. They just happen to be identities that are established by those actions. And (early) Soviets didn't consider any of that irredeemable either, as evidenced by many Imperial "white officers" later in employ of the Red Army.

So, no, it wasn't about any kind of a fundamental difference. That ideology didn't believe that there was any group of people to which common decency no longer applies. They believed that common decency no longer applies to anyone, because revolutionary necessity requires it. People who were deemed dangerous to that necessity were killed not because they were deemed subhuman, but solely because they were deemed to be a danger. They even reflected it in the criminal code - it didn't speak of "punishment", but rather of "means of social protection", and death penalty was euphemistically referred to as "the highest measure of social protection".

Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by ksdale on Monday September 10, 2018 @02:17AM (#17949745)
Thanks for the detailed reply. You seem far more knowledgeable about this than I!
Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by noobermin on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:19PM (#17949175)
No the Red Terror was not a genocide any more than the Civil War was a genocide. Conflating the two doesn't make much sense.
Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by ksdale on Sunday September 09, 2018 @11:33PM (#17949217)
I think mass murder of civilians on the basis of socioeconomic class is pretty damn close to a genocide, and definitely different than the Civil War, even though a lot of civilians died in the Civil War.
Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by noobermin on Monday September 10, 2018 @12:18AM (#17949346)
Words have meanings, and just because masses of people are murdered doesn't mean its genocide just like the Civil War or any war. The reason I've stated elsewhere in this thread is that people want to use genocide with regards to authoritarian left states is a tactic by fascists to soften the horrors of the Nazism.

The Stalinist regime was plenty violent and systematically kills millions of people, but calling it genocide doesn't make sense because that wasn't what it was by definition unless you want to compare it to Nazi germany which killed millions more.

Re:I survived the Warsaw ghetto. Here are the lessons I’d li... by int_19h on Monday September 10, 2018 @12:47AM (#17949446)
Stalinist regime did plenty of outright genocides even by the most rigid definition of the word, even if you insist that it's not any mass murder, but one carried out on the basis of ethnicity. Technically, most of those were designates as "population transfer" (i.e. deportations) - but they were often carried out in a way that either deliberately caused casualties, or knowingly did nothing about the ones that were the inevitable byproduct of the implementation. For example, the mortality rate for Chechen and Ingush deportees was around 25% - that's literally hundreds of thousands of people; and in some cases, entire villages were massacred outright because deporting them was not deemed logistically viable. All those people suffered for their ethnicity and no other reason. If that's not a genocide, what is?

But anyway, originally we were talking about "the worst atrocities in the history of the world", not genocide specifically. So it's reasonable to assume that genocide in this context is used in a colloquial meaning - i.e. any kind of intentional mass murder by some group metric, not necessarily ethnicity.