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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by unit91 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:29PM (#17898482)
Afghanistan combat veteran here. You've seen WAY too many movies.

Discretion is everything. Any time we'd hit a compound, we would pore over the intelligence, assess whether this was a likely badguy, whether they were a key player or just a low level radical, etc.

Equally important, are the people around said badguy likely also bad or innocent bystanders? If they're probably bad we want to capture them all together. If they're probably innocent we want to wait until the dude wanders off to minimize the risk to civilian life and property, even if that means greater risk to us.

Once you actually get to the target location, it starts all over again, only with less time and information. Is that a shovel or an RPG? I can't quite tell from here. Looks like an RPG -- what if I'm wrong? There's a house behind him, what's the risk if I wait 30 seconds...?

It's a real profession that takes real expertise by people with real emotions.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by wolf550e on Sunday September 02, 2018 @04:49PM (#17898562)
Unfortunately, it seems the ROE of American occupation forces in Afghanistan is more civilian-friendly than the ROE of American cops fighting the drug/race war.
Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by ryanmarsh on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:52PM (#17899973)
> Unfortunately, it seems the ROE of American occupation forces in Afghanistan is more civilian-friendly than the ROE of American cops

You had me until race war but yes. This is true in my exp.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by thedailymail on Monday September 03, 2018 @10:00PM (#17906094)
Related question – a relatively high percentage (~20%) of police officers are ex-military. It does seem that military ROE is more stringent than what we've seen from recent evidence of problems in police/citizen interactions. Do you think there is a cultural problem within police departments that engenders a weakening of discipline wrt use of force? Or is it just that the problems that occur domestically in the US get more coverage, and the rate of misapplied state violence is similar?
Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by ryanmarsh on Tuesday September 04, 2018 @01:13PM (#17910742)
Ex-military is not ex-combat veteran. Having been adequately trained for and employed in the use of deadly force (vs. refueling trucks or counting bullets) are two very different things. 1 in 10 soldiers are actually in a combat job.

It all comes down to training and experience. Police training budgets are tight, officers roll in single squad cars (little safety), sometimes physical fitness standards aren't upheld (fat cops can't scrap with someone they have to use a device to subdue them), and mental health issues abound (the job can be quite stressful and boring at the same time).

I've watched a lot of body cam footage of (legitimate) police shootings. I wonder how many of these one on one situations would have turned violent if the perp knew there were two officers bearing down on him instead of one?

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by omginternets on Wednesday September 05, 2018 @04:48PM (#17921769)
I remember hearing an NPR piece about how combat veterans were _less_ likely to shoot than others. Wish I had a link...
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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by Abekkus on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:48PM (#17899956)
The drug war has always been a cultural and class war, and of course it cuts along racial lines, as well as political ones. Not nonsense at all.

https://youtu.be/sXPOw2unxy0?t=238

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by javajosh on Sunday September 02, 2018 @05:05PM (#17898631)
I suppose I should have limited my claim to police - the anecdotes abound there. There is SWATing, which can be deadly, there are stories of cops getting fired for NOT killing the suicidal person waiving a knife, etc. But with the military I was thinking more of pilots, drone and otherwise, who's whole job is to kill stuff from afar. How can they show discretion?

But yeah, maybe a marine on the ground has more discretion than I realize. The other cases, though, I think are valid.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by trhway on Sunday September 02, 2018 @05:01PM (#17898617)
With robots you can err on the side of the shovel as worst that can happen is that the RPG will destroy the robot. With humans it is the "split second decision" which effectively pretty much takes any discretion away.
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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by unit91 on Sunday September 02, 2018 @05:56PM (#17898899)
No. Have you heard of 9/11?
Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:06PM (#17898940)
It's sort of an HN tradition that anyone with actual expertise related to, basically, a touchy subject who tries to give some push back on inaccurate information will get some kind of inappropriate remark that makes them out to be an apologist for bad behavior, one of the bad guys, or similar.

Thank you for serving your country. Thank you for lending your voice to this discussion.

Even though you can't downvote such comments (when they are a direct reply to you), you can flag them (if you have enough karma, like 50 pts iirc). That's probably the best thing to do as the HN guidelines indicate we shouldn't reply to bad comments, it just deepens the problem.

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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:14PM (#17898973)
Jacques, this isn't appropriate behavior on HN.

I probably defend you more than anyone else on Hacker News because it sticks in my craw to see you targeted for the crime of being high on the leaderboard. But your position on the leaderboard in no way makes these comments pass muster for the HN guidelines.

It's an ugly personal attack.

Maybe take your political opinions to your well trafficked blog and vent there. But it isn't acceptable here. The guidelines do not say "Unless you are on the leaderboard, and then feel free to do whatever you want."

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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:22PM (#17899007)
I don't think it is an attack on you. You seem to have some personal issue with me and you have accused me of sticking the knife in at any opportunity. This is not true. I also defend you.

For the record, I have a lot of respect you. I don't care if you believe that or not. From what I gather, someone has your ear and is filling it with lies about me. I've given you a lot of latitude in part because of my high personal regard for you, but I'm not attacking you here and I'm not obligated to tippy toe around you or something and defer to your opinion or something because of whatever your personal issue with me is.

I will make a note that you aren't interested in me defending you and try to restrain myself in the future when I see people behaving inappropriately towards you. I'm not the moderator here. It's not my job to moderate the space. But I am a member and folks do make "meta" comments at times.

I'm done here. I don't intend to reply further. This is not productive.

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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:26PM (#17899025)
My father and ex husband were both career military. I addressed a person who also served in the American military.

You don't own this entire thread because you spoke in it. I'm quite open about my background. It should hardly come as a shock to you that I don't agree with the idea of personally vilifying military members because you personally disagree with the politics of their country.

Anyway, I'm done, regardless of whatever else you want to say here.

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Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by DoreenMichele on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:51PM (#17899121)
Given your other remarks here, this is a completely disingenuous justification for personally attacking the person.

If I believed that you, in all seriousness, wondered if they ever thought deeply about such things, I wouldn't have said anything. The only thing "have you heard of 9/11" says to me is that the individual feels attacked by you. Given all the words you have written here, I think it is reasonable for them to interpret your question as an attack and not some good faith attempt to start some deeply philosophical discussion.

And it's an ugly thing to do, regardless of the justification you want to come up with after the fact while clearly signaling your belief that being a soldier makes you de facto evil. I don't agree with that position and I don't think it is appropriate for anyone to go around picking fights with soldiers on HN because they hold such beliefs.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by UncleEntity on Sunday September 02, 2018 @08:54PM (#17899514)
> ...essentially you will be conditioned to follow orders and you then need to hope that those orders will result in a net positive where you will end up holding the bag if they don't.

You are required to follow legal orders. Illegal orders, not so much because "you will end up holding the bag" as "I was just following orders" isn't a valid defense.

As for net positive/negative that really up to the politicians since (in the US at least) the military is commanded by the civilian government. One hopes one is engaging in a net positive but, as they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by jacquesm on Monday September 03, 2018 @01:00AM (#17900428)
That's the theory. In practice, people really do just follow orders, the handful that stands up gets mowed down quite easily. Look at the large number of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Vietnam and a dozen other places) and what came of the numerous war crimes committed. You don't need 20/20 to know that when you enlist the chances that you are going to be part of something bad are pretty high.

Have a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by bogomipz on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:41PM (#17899089)
You realize that the Netherland have also deployed troops to Afghanistan as part of the NATO mission there right? [1][2]

I'm curious if you would say the same hostile things to a Dutch soldier who was only serving his or her own country as they were asked to do.

[1] https://www.government.nl/latest/news/2018/06/15/netherlands...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-10829837

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by jacquesm on Sunday September 02, 2018 @06:42PM (#17899093)
> I'm curious if you would say the same things to a Dutch military soldier who was only serving his or her own country as they were asked to do.

Count on it.

But being sucked into Iraq was the bigger error.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by bogomipz on Sunday September 02, 2018 @09:06PM (#17899570)
And hopefully they will take a minute to explain to you that the reason you are free to pursue your software business is because people like them have committed to the business of keeping you and your country safe.
Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by jacquesm on Monday September 03, 2018 @12:57AM (#17900423)
NL has been pretty safe for the last 70 years, anybody you'd like to thank you better get on with it.

The major reason NL has been so safe is because the EEG and later the EU came into being, not because of any action by enlisted military. The NATO 'an attack on one is an attack on all' combined with the nukes of France and the UK are the bigger part of the balance there, with some help from the US, where there arguably is room to point out that this was mostly to serve US interests rather than the interests of Europe, any kind of fuck-up there would have likely turned the EU into a smoldering pile of ashes.

NL has very little to be proud of when it comes to the deployment of the military, both historically and in the present.

Re:Military robots are getting smaller and more capable by ryanmarsh on Sunday September 02, 2018 @10:53PM (#17899978)
Thank you for your service.