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Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by arcticbull on Friday August 31, 2018 @03:56AM (#17883750)
And crazy immigration laws and policies aren’t helping much either. IMO it makes sense people are staying home and building their businesses instead of uprooting to a place they perceive doesn’t want them, both from an immigration and a housing cost perspective. This is the real cost of current rhetoric and discourse, and it takes time to manifest, but the change is happening. Many of my friends recently moved out of the Bay Area and back to their countries of origin instead of pursuing a green card, and I’m on the fence myself, for exactly these reasons. These are successful, connected people who’ve seen exits too. I believe those who would be successful in SV can be successful anywhere.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by smaug7 on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:35AM (#17883912)
....that's what the article mentioned too...
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by imrelaxed on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:44AM (#17883960)
I’m confused. There is almost no rhetoric against legal and/or qualified immigration, just the illegal kind.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by electic on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:50AM (#17883986)
You're kidding? There is more and more rhetoric being spewed relating to the legal kind as well. There is even policy being enacted to drastically cut down or make it very hard to gain legal status by burying you with paperwork.

Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing of racism coming from the administrations is a clear signal that immigrants of different backgrounds are not wanted.

To that end, they simply pack up and build their business and wealth elsewhere. We won't feel those effects right now but it will hit hard in a few years.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by repolfx on Friday August 31, 2018 @07:50AM (#17884744)
There has always been pressure against H1Bs in the US tech industry. The one time I tried to immigrate to the valley there the visa cap was hit and I couldn't go (no regrets though). For my whole life I've seen American talk about immigration = outsourcing = lower wages. It's not new and it's not based in racism but rather money.

As for Trump, he is only talking about illegal immigration. Nobody with an engineering degree is going to care about his views on immigration, they may even welcome them because Trump apparently (I did not know this until reading the sibling links) wants to move to merit based immigration instead of a lottery scheme, which would help high skilled workers.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by moultano on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:37AM (#17886407)
>Trump apparently (I did not know this until reading the sibling links) wants to move to merit based immigration

He also wants to cut the quota to a third of its current value.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by repolfx on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:21PM (#17887279)
Not sure why you're being downvoted if it's true.

It can still be better for engineers though, if they are in the top third of desired immigrants from a jobs perspective.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by moultano on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:31PM (#17887806)
Engineering benefits from enormous network effects. American engineers are better off if all the engineers in the world move here. The industry goes where the engineers are. It's not because the valley has few engineers that it pays high salaries, it's because it has many engineers, and the high paying companies locate here to benefit from the network effects.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by weiming on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:59AM (#17884029)
> Beyond immigration talk, the constant spewing...

Curious to see some examples cited.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by devmunchies on Friday August 31, 2018 @10:08AM (#17885690)
> What more evidence do you need?

You act as if CNN and ACLU are convincing sources,even though they have obvious agendas against the current administration.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by runamok on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:17PM (#17886748)
The ACLU link is literally a timeline of events. Care to refute those instead of just making an ad hominem?
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by moultano on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:40AM (#17886437)
The guy said "there are good people on both sides" after a group of neo Nazis chanted "Jews will not replace us," murdered a woman by driving a car into a crowd, and attempted to lynch a black man.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by repolfx on Friday August 31, 2018 @07:56AM (#17884772)
I clicked the first link.

I feel a strange need to show fairness to Trump here. The CNN headline is very misleading, it says "Trump basically called Mexicans rapists again" but then goes on to quote him and the quote doesn't contain any such statement. He doesn't even mention Mexicans. Rather he makes a general statement that women get raped a lot on the paths used for illegal immigration into the USA, a statement CNN actually agrees with according to their article:

"Nobody is arguing that the trip from Central America to the US is easy or that women are not attacked or exploited on it. That is a well-documented problem, one that Trump brought up to bolster his own case for tougher immigration laws."

Trump expressing concern about abuse of women on the paths used by illegal immigrants is an odd form of 'racism'.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by naravara on Friday August 31, 2018 @10:12AM (#17885719)
There is no way you can be this gullible. There is absolutely rhetoric and action being taken against all immigrants. The "illegal" label is a canard, and being as how our immigration laws are largely arbitrary and nonsensical, not even a very logical one.

Passports are being denied to US citizens and their documentation is being deemed invalid based on no evidence and no due process: https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-administration-denying-pass...

Steve Bannon talks about how even legal immigrants from South Asia don't fit into America's "civic society" (whatever that means): https://boingboing.net/2016/11/17/steve-bannon-wants-to-depo...

ICE reserves the right to detail and interrogate people about their immigration status as a matter of course, and their only rubric for "suspicion" is "person is Brown." http://www.witf.org/news/2018/07/how-racial-profiling-goes-u...

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by pjc50 on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:58AM (#17884024)
"Legal" immigrants face a rising endless treadmill of demand for proof, and can be made illegal by the stroke of a pen with no recourse.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by tanilama on Friday August 31, 2018 @05:05AM (#17884052)
Nah, it is widely felt every immigrant is unwanted by the action of USCIS as of late.

I don't mind long wait time, but I hate to live under fear and some bureaucrat's mercy and being assumed as job thieves.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by puranjay on Friday August 31, 2018 @06:49AM (#17884457)
As a potential legal immigrant, I just don't want to take my labor to a country whose President doesn't respect or welcome me. Sure, the rhetoric might be against illegal immigration, but I'd rather just move to a country where Nazis aren't "fine people".

The America brand has essentially been tainted.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by frockington on Friday August 31, 2018 @08:23AM (#17884911)
I don't understand this logic. You want to move to America, but you hate America. Why not just move elsewhere then? Is there something that America has that you can't find anywhere else?
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by mfringel on Friday August 31, 2018 @10:17AM (#17885758)
It appears that you have conflated "hating America" with "hating the current President and his policies". Can you say more about that?
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by puranjay on Friday August 31, 2018 @09:36PM (#17889646)
That's exactly what I meant: that I'd just take my labor elsewhere. I have no intention of immigrating to America in the near future; it will take someone like Obama in power again for me to think otherwise. There are other labor markets that are happy to put out the welcome mat for me

The sad thing is that I studied in America for two years and can't reconcile the current rhetoric with the memories I had

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by NTDF9 on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:47AM (#17883972)
You have no idea how this administration is systematically pushing family oriented tech people away by creating gridlocks in the legal immigration process.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by raverbashing on Friday August 31, 2018 @05:50AM (#17884228)
Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help.

Having ceilings based on a % of company number of employees or some other mechanism would go a long way (or the chance of draw being related to their salary)

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by moultano on Friday August 31, 2018 @07:41AM (#17884690)
Moving to a function of salary instead of a lottery would be an improvement, but not if it is accompanied by a cut in the quota which the Trump admin is reported to want. Bringing people to the US who earn more than the median wage enormously benefits Americans. We've built our economy on a brain drain from the rest of the world and we're making every effort right now to fuck that up.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by NTDF9 on Friday August 31, 2018 @06:02AM (#17884275)
>> Well, big companies abusing the system certainly doesn't help.

They already have a legal requirement to pay prevailing wage before they can get a visa. That means at least six figures in the bay area.

There are a few reasons Americans don't take these six figure jobs:

1. Don't want to live in California/too expensive

2. This is the more common reason: Americans don't do STEM much, cannot compete with internationals. Obviously not all Americans are incompetent but given the number of open positions in the bay area, there are just not enough of them.

As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero.

The only way our product would sustain is by hiring people. So we eventually ended up hiring an h1b Chinese guy who was very very smart and capable. Then, because legal immigration process is choked off, he still couldn't join after 4 months. So we just had him join an offshore satellite office and moved his projects there.

If he plays his cards right, the project will grow and he will help us hire more in the offshore site.

Does this sound good for America?

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @08:22AM (#17884904)
As an anecdote, my manager has had 2 open positions for 7 months now, paying $125k base + sign on + relocation + bonus + stock for a new grad. Guess how many we've filled after 7 months? A big fat zero.

Why would anyone move to California for $125K when they could live in one of 20 other major cities, make the same amount with a lower cost of living?

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by jogjayr on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:43AM (#17886464)
GP didn't say $125k total comp. Counting sign-on, bonus, and stock, it could be as much as $200k total comp - for a new grad. Which other cities/industries pay that much? (outside of finance or law, at the top end)
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:58AM (#17886603)
What are the chances that the stock+bonus will be an extra $75K per year? Also, the stock and probably sign on bonus probably has a vesting period. What will be the future value of the stock? What if the project doesn’t go as planned and they let the potential employee go before the vesting period?

Cash is king. Anything else shifts the risks away from the better capitalized corporation to the less capitalized potential employee.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by jogjayr on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:14PM (#17886730)
If it's a FAANG-type company, the stock has done well in the past 10 years so it's been a pretty good bet to make. Public tech companies have done well overall.

Sign-on bonuses don't have a vesting period. That's why they're called "sign-on" - you get them when you sign on. You might have to give them back, pro-rated, if you leave the company within a certain time period (typically a year).

> Cash is king.

I'm not disagreeing here. I'm just pointing out that the fixed $125k number in your mind is inaccurate in reality. The total value of the stock+sign-on+bonus may not be $75k (that might be the ideal case) but it's not $0 either. The total comp is a lot of money for any new grad in any city in the world (again, outside of finance and law at the top end).

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @05:14PM (#17888655)
At Amazon, you have to pay back the sign on bonus if you leave within one year and you have to pay back relocation expenses if you leave in two from what I have heard.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:28PM (#17886860)
If it's a FAANG-type company, the stock has done well in the past 10 years so it's been a pretty good bet to make. Public tech companies have done well overall.

Realistically, what are the chances of Apple, Google, Microsoft or Facebook who are all circling $1 trillion to see the same types of returns over the next ten years?

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by NTDF9 on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:45PM (#17887876)
>> Cash is king. Anything else shifts the risks away from the better capitalized corporation to the less capitalized potential employee.

And this kind of over-generalization and over-rationalization is exactly the reason why Americans cannot be found.

Sorry, if you want the job, take it else the jobs are going elsewhere. We have a product to sell.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:21PM (#17888381)
Americans can be found. But obviously if your company can’t find any, then the compensation you offer isn’t competitive and Americans have better opportunities elsewhere.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by NTDF9 on Friday August 31, 2018 @05:18PM (#17888673)
> Americans can be found. But obviously if your company can’t find any, then the compensation you offer isn’t competitive and Americans have better opportunities elsewhere.

So you have better opportunities elsewhere. Whats your problem with me hiring legal taxpaying smart international people?

Do you want to kill my razor thin business causing layoffs? Do you want me to move to another country? Do you not want smart people here in the US? Do you not want growth in the US?

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @06:22PM (#17888958)
I placed no value judgement on your hiring people internationally and making the best decision for your business and doing what was in your best interest.

On the other hand, the original post did imply that there was something morally wrong with employees not being “loyal” and jumping ship to a better offer or not accepting your offer at all because it was in their best interest.

But at the end of the day, it is your business not mine. That informs where both of our loyalties will lie.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by sidr on Friday August 31, 2018 @01:14PM (#17887231)
Because the you cannot make the same amount in those 20 other cities.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:04PM (#17887635)
You really don’t think a developer can make $125K anywhere besides SV?
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by NTDF9 on Friday August 31, 2018 @02:43PM (#17887868)
New grad? Where? The only 2 other places are Seattle and NYC, both facing the same employee crunch.
Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by scarface74 on Friday August 31, 2018 @04:25PM (#17888409)
New grads can’t make $125K in those 20 cities, but they can find comparable salaries vs. cost of living.

You can live comfortably in a nice area in the burbs in many American metro areas off of $70K - $90K.

I could do much better making $90K in most major metros that are not on the west coast or New York than I could do in SV for $125K.

Re:Silicon Valley is changing, and its lead over other tech ... by TheCoelacanth on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:50AM (#17886527)
"Chain migration", "extreme vetting", people legally seeking asylum are "gaming the system", "turn off the jobs and benefits magnet", "Massive demographic changes have been foisted upon the American people. And they’re changes that none of us ever voted for and most of us don’t like", "almost every student that comes over [from China] is a spy", we admit too many immigrants from "shitholes"

If you haven't seen rhetoric against legal immigration, you haven't been paying attention.