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Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by hackinthebochs on Thursday August 30, 2018 @02:20PM (#17879267)
The subtext of the hand-wringing over this case is that somehow Asians have earned or deserve their spot in Harvard for having X GPA or Y SAT scores, and thus it is "unfair" for people with lower GPA/SATs to be admitted over them. But this is just flat out wrong.

The issue is that admissions to top universities isn't strictly meritocratic. Or to put it another way, "merit" in this context isn't simply GPA and SAT scores. Harvard as an institution wants to increase its prestige over time, and so they want to admit students who will go on to be CEOs, Senators, Presidents, etc. They want to pick the future leaders of society, but this is only correlated with GPA/SAT up to a point.

This is where race-aware admissions is perfectly warranted by Harvard. They want students who are outliers as those people will go on to do great things. But being an outlier of your cluster is important signal. And race is a very important cluster in society. That they structure their admissions to make sure they're getting the outstanding people from a broad range of races and circumstances is Harvard just working in their best interest. If Asian applications are very similar to each other, then they have a good reason to weigh such applications lower because you're no longer an outlier in the sense that is valuable to Harvard.

This isn't a moral issue like some are trying to make this out to be. If there is a moral issue here, its whether any institution should have such an outsized influence on the outcome of a person's life, not whether Asians are being unfairly barred from the king-maker institution.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by SenseiMaster on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:11PM (#17880811)
It most definitely is a moral issue when students are racially discriminated against. There is a trade-off between racial diversity and racial discrimination.

What you're saying here is that non-Asian leaders who are individually worse leaders take the spot of Asian leaders who are individually better leaders because the race of non-Asian leaders makes them better leaders.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by hackinthebochs on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:52PM (#17881127)
>racially discriminated against

But we haven't settled whether they're being racially discriminated against. If some legitimate feature to discriminate or filter against correlates with race, then it will look a lot like racial discrimination when it isn't. Harvard wanting to maximize their future prestige by carefully constructing the makeup of their student body is such an instance. Maximizing leadership potential of their student body will look like racial discrimination. It's similar to how the distribution of housing loans can look like racial discrimination if you didn't already know that income correlates with race.

> non-Asian leaders who are individually worse leaders take the spot of Asian leaders who are individually better leaders

No. I'm saying GPA and SAT scores only correlate with leadership potential up to a point. Once you've passed that threshold, other factors start contributing more, e.g. your background, interests, etc. It is not the case that the person with the higher GPA/SAT necessarily has more leadership potential.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by ThrowawayR2 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @06:25PM (#17881338)
> It is not the case that the person with the higher GPA/SAT necessarily has more leadership potential.

And somehow these "lacking in leadership potential" students happen to be Asian more often than the norm? Year after year? Seems like a convenient coincidence.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by hackinthebochs on Thursday August 30, 2018 @07:28PM (#17881723)
You're missing the point. There is no way to quantify leadership potential and so they have to come up with various heuristics. One heuristic is being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster. That is, group people by various factors such as race, income, region, etc. Those who are outliers of those groups are likely to have leadership potential: whatever drove them to succeed where others failed in similar circumstances is a strong signal for leadership potential.
Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by ThrowawayR2 on Friday August 31, 2018 @03:05AM (#17883517)
> One heuristic is being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster. That is, group people by various factors such as race, income, region, etc.

Then, pray tell, which lack of "being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster" is common to Asian applicants, year after year? I'm sure we would all be fascinated to hear the specific areas in which Asian applicants are failing to match these heuristics where other minority applicants do.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by hackinthebochs on Friday August 31, 2018 @11:46AM (#17886496)
Your responses seem to indicate you don't understand the points I'm making (or you're just very invested in the narrative you're pushing). It's hard to see what I can say that won't invite a further response such as this.

But to put a very fine point on it, Asians with stellar scores, similar backgrounds, similar interests, similar extra curriculars lack diversity in backgrounds, interests and extra curriculars by definition. There's nothing deeper to be noted about this. Whether Asians that apply to Harvard actually have similar backgrounds, interests and extra curriculars is certainly up for debate. But it is plausible.

The issue is that the distribution of leadership potential in the applicant pool is not equivalent to the distribution of top GPA and test scores (past a certain threshold). So when you use your GPA/SAT metric to analyze something that doesn't follow the same distribution, you will conclude there is bias. But it is your metric that is wrong. If your argument is that they necessarily should use your GPA/SAT metric, then you have to argue for this directly. It is not self evident.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by JamesBarney on Friday August 31, 2018 @12:06AM (#17882882)
I think his argument is if you have the same number of great leaders per capita in each race. Then maybe at the margin you should take in an African American who scored better than 98% of his peers over an Asian who scored better than 90% of his peers.(for instance Asians have 30x the number of individuals per capita who score an 800 on an SAT compared to African Americans.)
Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by threatofrain on Thursday August 30, 2018 @05:14PM (#17880833)
My interpretation of your statement is that you're arguing for Harvard's business prerogative to turn business knobs to achieve business outcomes. But do you not agree that there is moral wisdom in striking race as a consideration from the market?

There are all sorts of scenarios where there are natural incentives to discriminate on race; perhaps a bank can improve their model on creditworthiness if they considered race. Perhaps a company that provides security personnel can better model risk if they considered race. Perhaps Harvard can better improve their ability to accumulate powerful people if they considered race.

But isn't it agreeable that not all kinds of strife is useful to a nation? Perhaps strife between companies is useful for diversity in a market, but racial strife? Which brews into generations of mistrust?

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by hackinthebochs on Thursday August 30, 2018 @06:06PM (#17881231)
>But do you not agree that there is moral wisdom in striking race as a consideration from the market?

Sure, but not when done naively. Naive "anti-racism" policies generally serve to cement the current status-quo, which is why they have so much support these days. This is only to argue against the idea that being race blind across the board is a moral imperative.

The issue is what responsibility does Harvard have to admit students in a "meritocratic" (i.e. GPA/SAT are paramount) manner. I don't see that they have any such responsibility. I don't think they should discount Asian applicants because they're Asian. I do think its fair to positively weigh diversity in background and interests. But in a zero-sum scenario, this will look like racial discrimination from the outside, and that's OK.

>perhaps a bank can improve their model on creditworthiness if they considered race

Banks do use income and wealth in their model of creditworthiness. But if you didn't already know that race correlates with income, you might think that they are using race as an independent factor. Presumably you have no issue with this.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by threatofrain on Thursday August 30, 2018 @11:30PM (#17882720)
> Presumably you have no issue with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

There's definitely a bit of gray in there for me.

Re:Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win... by castlecrasher2 on Thursday August 30, 2018 @02:44PM (#17879526)
What you explain in your third paragraph sounds an awful lot like quotas.