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Re:No Java 7, The End Game by zmmmmm on Monday October 11, 2010 @11:36PM (#1782225)
Yes. I can't help thinking that if I was Google, I would be working on an alternative language that compiles directly to Dalvik bytecode as fast as I could. Heck, I'd probably just be grabbing something like Go and throwing 10 pHDs at it.

This would help them in many many ways. Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM. This clears them of several legal challenges (still leaving some).

Secondly and more importantly, it would up the stakes with Oracle tremendously. Having Google actually abandon Java on Android due to legal concerns would be a huge blow to Java. Especially if Google did so in a way that enabled existing Java applications to be ported easily (by adopting the Apache Harmony libraries, utilizing their existing dexer to enable people to run their existing Java code while picking up Google's replacement language for new code). They'd have to work around any patent violations in the VM which might have some performance impact but I'd still assume it is possible.

It would basically change the game to a lose-lose proposition for Oracle - win the court case, get some money, but lose Java. Lose the court case, effectively still lose control of Java.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by mhw on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @04:54AM (#1782761)
> I can't help thinking that if I was Google, I would be working on an alternative language that compiles directly to Dalvik bytecode as fast as I could.

Swapping the language out is probably the smaller part of the problem. The dependency that every application has on the Java-based runtime libraries are the bigger problem.

> Heck, I'd probably just be grabbing something like Go and throwing 10 pHDs at it.

Go already has a working ARM code generator, so you could potentially skip the Dalvik step completely and ship native code. I think you'd still need to put some effort into building a set of Android libraries for Go though.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by anonymous245 on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @11:41AM (#1783766)
Why do you think Google picked Java in the first place (and not a "really" open language like C++, Javascript, or Python)? To appeal to as many developers as possible on Day 1.

Further, Google as a company seems to have drunk the Java Kool-Aid (e.g., Closure compiler is written in Java, GWT uses Java as source language, and I hear Java is one of the three "blessed" languages (others being C++ and Python)). Personally, I think C++ would have been a better choice for the first project, and Python for the second one.

It's highly unlikely they're going to stop using Java on Android.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by technomancy on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @12:11AM (#1782284)
> Firstly it would demonstrate to the courts that Dalvik is not specifically a Java VM.

This is already pretty clear; you can run Lua, Scala, Javascript, Scheme, Ruby, and many other languages on Dalvik.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by zmmmmm on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @12:45AM (#1782344)
I'm not so sure.

A "JVM" is not a Java language interpreter anyway but a Java byte code interpreter. AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format, thus it is arguable that they are all "Java" as far as the VM goes.

What Google needs is something that compiles directly to Dalvik's own native format which has no "Java" at all in the pipeline.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by technomancy on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @01:07PM (#1784075)
> AFAIK all those other languages only run on Dalvik by first being compiled to Java byte code format

You seem to think the JVM bytecode format is specific to the Java Programming Language™; why is this?

Admittedly Sun has muddled things up here by using the word "Java" to mean many separate things.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by loewenskind on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @03:12AM (#1782590)
wtf? You apparently don't know much about the JVM because AFAIK it was the first VM people started targeting other languages at.
Re:No Java 7, The End Game by loewenskind on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @04:36AM (#1782726)
Anyone care to explain the downvotes? The poster I replied to claimed that Dalvik is different because people target different languages at it. Not only do people do this for the JVM, I think it was probably the first VM where people did this.
Re:No Java 7, The End Game by dchest on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @06:39AM (#1782904)
Easy: read the first 7 words of your post.
Re:No Java 7, The End Game by WalterBright on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @04:46AM (#1782744)
The UCSD P-system was a VM that ran several languages, and was at least a decade older than the JVM.
Re:No Java 7, The End Game by loewenskind on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @06:15AM (#1782862)
Ok, so that makes my "AFAIK" statement incorrect, but that doesn't affect the point nor explain the down votes.
Re:No Java 7, The End Game by corprew on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @11:49AM (#1783793)
things that will get you downvoted include statements like "wtf, you apparently don't know..."

1) impolite. 2) your comments should concentrate on what you can add to the convo, not what others haven't.

I mean, it also doesn't help that your statement was incorrect (P-system as mentioned), but being rude in what is ideally a civil forum dedicated to a stated purpose is not helpful.

Re:No Java 7, The End Game by technomancy on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @12:03PM (#1783847)
> The poster I replied to claimed that Dalvik is different because people target different languages at it

Reading comprehension, bro. Give it a try.

The Dalvik VM, like the Java Virtual Machine, is quite capable of running languages that aren't Java. There's nothing controversial or incorrect about that statement.