Not to mention fungicides and herbicides, which are also permitted with "organic" farming. https://tilth.org/app/uploads/2014/12/can-i-use-this-pestici...

"Hydrogen peroxide and potassium bicarbonate, two familiar substances that are relatively new as fungicides, are also permitted."

"Various natural substances have been tried as herbicides with mixed success. Clove oil is a botanical that is effective."

Right, those are ubiquitous chemicals and compounds with a relatively low uncertainty to their ecological and biological impacts. Unlike for example - synthetically augmented glyphosate compounds, and other contentious products which organic standards takes a precautionary stance towards.

"they still spray as much pesticides you want"

Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations. Honestly, if you dont acknowledge this very basic reality of organic certification then your arguments against it are besides reason.

Organic certification is not a "meaningless marketing term" like for example "family farm" can be. It means the farm has been advised and reviewed to follow restrictions on pesticide, fertilizer use and other practices which are applied in addition to regional and national farming regulations.

> Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations

Kinds, yes, which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities. And the kinds are not based on any scientific evaluation of safety or health, but on what amounts to religious preference.

Organic certification is like kosher or halal certification.

> which often results in greater and more environmentally harmful quantities.

Do you have any substantial references of such results happening "often" or is that idea just gathered from anecdotes and casual articles ?

Without knowing more, it seems a logical deduction. If the "organic" pesticides were more effective than the "chemical" pesticides, farmers would always choose to use them. If the alternatives aren't as effective, then you need to spray more for the same result.

So this then claim stems not from knowledge but from a "seemingly logical deduction". It is clear that there is no actual substance to this idea that "organic farms often use more pesticides" - even the notion is false that "more pesticides" is a meaningful concept as it alludes only to pesticide weight or mass and ignores all qualities of the substances involved - in the accompanying "logical deduction" - such as ecological and biological impact.

Organic standards are not so simply drawn as to focus on the weight or mass or price of pesticides - they concern the ecological impact and risk of agricultural materials and practices.

>Organic labelled produce cant, it is subject to greater restrictions of pesticide use than general international farming regulations.

is that a feature of some organic certification programs, or just some?

There is generally only one organic certification program per country, in the US it is administered by the United States Department of Agriculture [0] - which also administrates most standard regulations. Of course, no organically certified products are exempt from any standard regulations - the organic regulations exist in addition to general standards.

[0]https://www.ams.usda.gov/services/organic-certification/beco...

I took a quick skim of the "farmers guide" https://web.archive.org/web/20170217143321/https://www.ams.u...

and couldn't find anything saying you can't "spray as much pesticides you want", only that you can only spray certain pesticides. can you provide a link to the regulation preventing unlimited usage of allowed organic pesticides?

"they can spray as much pesticides as they want" equates substances with pesticidal properties like pepper with the likes of glyposate and chlorpyrifos products. It was a deceptively simplistic statement from the get go, which you should put aside.

Where there may be substances used for pest control which are not limited by organic certification or EPA or USDA general standards, those substances will almost certainly be ubiquitous in nature with zero conceivable impact on health and environment.

Organic standards most contentious pesticide is perhaps Copper sulphate, which has potential to taint soil biology.

Here is description of its controls and others.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/04/04/2018-06...

"Copper Sulfate—for use as an algicide in aquatic rice systems, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to those which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent."