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Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by ModernMech on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:21AM (#17757619)
> The nation was based on the notion that property ownership gives individuals a stake in the system. It set Americans apart from feudal peasants, taught us how property rights and incentives operate, and was a kind of training for future entrepreneurship.

Then rents went up, education became more expensive, wages went stagnant, the rich got richer, and suddenly owning property and buying "stuff" to fuel the insatiable furnace of capitalism doesn't seem like such a great life goal. If that means we're not participating in "the system", well... maybe it's time to change the system.

Also, I think it strange the author questions what the death of property ownership means for capitalism, and then cites various examples of capitalism in action that are working to corrode property ownership -- e.g. Apple, Amazon, etc. The rise of subscription services over shrink wrapped software or hardware to which you own the rights arose directly from capitalism.

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by tootie on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:29AM (#17757676)
I think that was all intentional. He's not at any point saying this is good or bad. Just that it's uncharted territory and the long-term impact is unknown and not being prepared for.
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by ModernMech on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:36AM (#17757729)
I'm sure it's intentional, but I think it's still strange given the implications. The author is on to something, but I think they need to keep going on this line of thought. If market forces are driving companies to work against the notion of property ownership, and the idea of capitalism is predicated on the notion of property ownership, the current trend doesn't seem tenable.

At what point does capitalism stop being what it is and evolve into something else entirely?

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:27AM (#17757661)
To help change the system, we could build The Machine: http://tlalexander.com/machine/
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by glitchc on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:41AM (#17757761)
The Machine doesn't fix the problem. Just some problems off the top of my head:

1) Some groups will just use the resources of the Machine, while others will work on improving The Machine. Over time, Machines in some areas will be vastly more capable than other areas. This will create haves and have-nots, urge migration and give rise to a system very similar to the current worlds (first-, second-, third-).

2) In your utopia, the corporation has no incentive to build a long-lasting Machine, especially since the Machine can build it's own parts. The corporation may also upgrade Machine capabilities (a new XBox/PS) that make it desirable to upgrade, forcing the town to pony up more money or resources. And what about the people who work at those corporations? Do they not live like the folks with the Machine? Why do they have to work, for money presumably? Again, haves and have-nots.

3) Resources in a local area are finite. What happens when the water runs out?

4) If the Machine removes the need for money, how do the townsfolk pay for the Machine? How does it all start?

You are a technological optimist. Like other technological optimists, there is a basic human psychological need that is not being acknowledged in this solution. That is, the desire to be better than your fellow man: Whether this is at an individual level, family level or society level is less relevant, but so long as this need exists, no amount of technology can fix the problem, as any new technology can be bent to increase, not decrease, disparity.

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @12:15PM (#17759231)
Nothing can “fix the problem”, but I propose that putting the essential machinery of production in to common ownership can help. In the stories I write, no one can force someone else to “pony up” for upgrades, and everything is open source.

Much of my writing is meant to be a thought experiment. I think it may be an improvement if groups of people support one another voluntarily, and share in common ownership of critical factors of production.

My writing is a way to explore a class free society (economic class that is) free of wasteful consumerism. It is not necessarily meant to be a literal plan.

However you ask about resource consumption: society already uses resources at an unsustainable rate. I claim The Machine will improve on our resource consumption by reducing consumerism and needless consumption. But the fact that a society with the machine may still be unsustainable does not mean it isn’t an improvement. The Machine only fails if you expect that I am proposing a solution to all problems, which is not the case.

Humans will still have inequality, but I don’t claim to totally solve that. I think The Machine could help reduce inequality, but it depends on how we use it.

Anyway, I’m a bit rushed and I’m sorry I haven’t provided a clearer reply. I just wanted to give you some kind of answer. Thanks for reading my work!

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by glitchc on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @02:02PM (#17760310)
The Machine will result in different kinds of inequality, possibly worse over the long run.

What I was trying to demonstrate is that classes exist because humans want them to exist. Technology cannot solve a behaviour problem. Through evolution, we learn that a certain percentage of selfish actors in a large pool of altruistic actors is long-term stable, which blew me away the first time I read about it.

Finally, have you read Cory Doctorow's "Walkaway"? If not, suggested reading.

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by wetpaws on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @12:27PM (#17759335)
>there is a basic human psychological need that is not being acknowledged in this solution

Then I guess we need to change human psychology :)

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by glitchc on Thursday August 16, 2018 @02:45PM (#17777447)
Yay, let's bring eugenics back. :D
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by baochan on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @01:03PM (#17759686)
I kept reading expecting The Machine to be a metaphor for local economies or something, but no, they want to actually build a Star Trek-style replicator that runs on a trickle of water and garbage that's funded by Kickstarter.
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @05:38PM (#17762144)
I’m the author. Actually building the machine is one possible outcome but essentially The Machine is a metaphor for local economies. A fact I’ve felt I should clarify in a subsequent essay.
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by claydavisss on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:28AM (#17757669)
But society has willfully embraced living "in the present"...who here would give up their SF rental in exchange for a property in Gilroy they will eventually own? How many here would give up their leased 2018 BMW for a used Toyota Yaris?
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:42AM (#17757771)
I mean this is all what I’m considering. I hate working day in and day out in the Bay Area. I grew up in the Santa Cruz mountains in the forest and now I commute through an asphalt jungle to a concrete building where I’m pampered every day like a fragile snowflake. I’m constantly working to figure out how I could afford a home in the outskirts of this region. I’ve already moved from an Audi to a Honda although it’s kind of an expensive Honda, so I’m considering switching to something cheaper. And I’m dreaming of finding land in pescadero.

So to answer your question... some of us?

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by ModernMech on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:47AM (#17757825)
I did exactly this. I gave up my $3500 apartment in SF and moved to the central valley. People in SF and the Bay shit all over the central valley, but I've never been happier.
Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by jfk13 on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @10:00AM (#17757936)
Sure. I don't feel any urge to pay several hundred per month for several years for a car, when I can have an equally functional (if less flashy) car that I bought outright for less than the up-front deposit on the BMW.

(To be exact, I drive a 15-yr-old Skoda, not a Yaris, but you get the idea.)

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by grasshopperpurp on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:36AM (#17757728)
>How many here would give up their leased 2018 BMW for a used Toyota Yaris?

If someone gave me a BMW, assuming it wasn't a close friend or someone I had to worry about offending, I would sell it and continue using my old car.

Re:Americans Own Less Stuff, and That’s Reason to Be Nervous by glitchc on Tuesday August 14, 2018 @09:41AM (#17757764)
You would be in the minority.