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Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by closeparen on Sunday August 12, 2018 @08:32PM (#17747282)
Providing a minor source of income is usually considered unethical and illegal. Minimum wages were adopted explicitly to curtail piecework that paid only a few pennies per item. Recycling programs knowingly target the most vulnerable in society to work without protections like minimum wage, overtime, and health insurance. Yet it seems they have political support from many of of the same people who advocate labor protections. How does that work?
Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by dsr_ on Sunday August 12, 2018 @09:18PM (#17747430)
Only people who are not served by better programs will spend time picking up cans for recycling value.

I can simultaneously want to make sure that nobody goes hungry or homeless, and still recognize that we aren't doing that today, so in the meantime having that recycling income available is better than not having it.

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by coldtea on Monday August 13, 2018 @05:43AM (#17749012)
>Only people who are not served by better programs will spend time picking up cans for recycling value.

The inverse is more true: people will continue not serving others by better programs if they can have them work for them for pennies...

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by closeparen on Sunday August 12, 2018 @10:58PM (#17747755)
This is exactly the neoliberal argument against labor protections in general. People would obtain jobs with dignified pay & benefits if they could. Having an option that seems exploitative is better than having no options. Thus, imposing minimum standards on the work that can be offered is harmful. Pursue other, better mechanisms to boost and lower-bound standards of living (economic growth, negative income tax). In the meantime, don't stand in the way of mutually beneficial transactions.

This is a right-wing, Milton Friedman worldview. The left (pretty much by definition as "the left") emphatically rejects these arguments with respect to flipping burgers, running a cash register, or delivering groceries. What's special about picking up glass bottles?

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by dsr_ on Monday August 13, 2018 @08:27AM (#17749514)
I will vote for a minimum wage. I will vote for a minimum wage with an automatic update based on any reasonable measure of inflation. I will vote for a basic income. I will vote for much higher and much more progressive income taxes. I will vote for a wealth tax. I will vote for stronger unions. I will vote for better anti-corruption measures across the board, for companies and unions and governments.

And I will not vote to remove recycling deposits because you think that it's somehow exploiting poor people to let them get a little money.

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by stone-monkey on Sunday August 12, 2018 @10:37PM (#17747692)
Does that frame of reference make sense for a recycling program though? The deposit system is a zero sum system that isn't designed for the purpose of making money - the deposit is to discourage consumers from throwing recyclables away and instead get their money back.

It seems like more of a side effect that low income workers use it as an income stream more than anything. It's like a metaphorical form of picking up loose change that others have dropped and deemed not worth their time to pick up.

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by closeparen on Sunday August 12, 2018 @11:06PM (#17747791)
>isn't designed for the purpose of making money

It saves taxpayers and sellers a boatload of money compared to paying for proper employees with health insurance, mileage reimbursement, etc. to clean up their streets / source their raw material / deal with their waste.

Parks and community centers aren't designed for the purpose of making money, either, but we generally expect the people cleaning their toilets to have solid benefits.

>It's like a metaphorical form of picking up loose change that others have dropped and deemed not worth their time to pick up.

How is that different from the gig economy?

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by stone-monkey on Monday August 13, 2018 @06:24AM (#17749130)
> How is that different from the gig economy?

It's different because the purpose of the deposit isn't to crowdsource people to exploit via underpaying them to recycle, whereas that is exactly the case for the gig economy. Uber, Airbnb, etc. rely on individual contractors being cheaper than their regulated equivalent (Taxis, hotels) while also putting the risk on them. The purpose of the deposit is harm reduction - incentivize people to stop littering their recyclables by charging them money for the bottles/cans.

If we were to remove the deposit system and instead replace it with paid workers, why would any particular individual care about not littering? After all, our taxes pay for workers to clean it up. I'm not saying I espouse that belief, but when you increase the convenience factor of something like littering, people will do it more often. When it hurts people's pocketbooks to litter, they do it less. Take, for example, plastic grocery bags. Everyone knows plastic grocery bags create a huge waste problem and a little bit of thoughtfulness (bringing reusable bags with you) can mitigate the amount of bags used. However, it wasn't until we started charging a fee for grocery bags that usage numbers dropped significantly.

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by gspetr on Monday August 13, 2018 @01:25AM (#17748177)
Unethical and illegal?

Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Switzerland do not have minimum wages.

Yet none of them were overwhelmed by the abuse of homeless labor.

Re:Do “sin taxes” work? by coldtea on Monday August 13, 2018 @05:45AM (#17749018)
No, but they have union agreements for minimum wages (enforced across sectors) and they have excellent welfare for those without a job (to the point that being a bastard boss and merely giving people scraps wont going to land you many workers).

Plus, as societies they have a basic decency, absent from other more exploitative societies.