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Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by eropple on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:34AM (#17698513)
A large part of it is that it is a collective action problem. If you want to talk about "effective action"? You're talking about shutting down coal plants, not going after the man or woman on the street. A person needing a car to get to work is, both in real and proportional terms, causing overwhelmingly less damage to the environment than industrial-scale polluters. If everybody who could switch to a bike instead of a car (which is fewer people, at least in America, than you might realize), you would see a blip on the graph.

Calling into question the sincerity of people concerned about climate change but also concerned about actually getting to work on time and not stinking and getting fired because their bosses don't care is just some nasty, uncharitable stuff. And it's also counterproductive. It's the "but Al Gore flies in jets!" thing all over again, discrediting what state actors need to be doing because of the actions of private citizens. Don't do that. It's bad for you and bad for us.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by btrettel on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:45AM (#17698626)
Transportation is the largest source of greenhouse gases in the US.

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/fast-facts-transportation-...

Not all of that is personal transportation, but a lot of it is. This is not a blip on the graph.

I also agree that large polluters need to change, and that we need state action. I was just pointing out that people who seem to believe climate change is a problem rarely make major lifestyle changes consistent with their stated beliefs.

Saying this is primarily a collective action problem is passing the buck. It's a convenient excuse for doing nothing. Collective action is much harder than personal action. Ultimately, we need both collective and personal action.

> Calling into question the sincerity of people concerned about climate change but also concerned about actually getting to work on time and not stinking and getting fired because their bosses don't care is just some nasty, uncharitable stuff.

You seem to believe that cycling to work is much more challenging than it actually is. You may be surprised, but no cyclist I know has the problems you've mentioned. Those problems can happen, but they are not that common in my experience.

Yes, the US is a car dependent society, but you can choose where to live and choose your job. Like most people choose where to live based on their driving commute, I choose where to live based on my cycling commute. It is not a long commute, and I arrive on time and usually am not sweaty.

Also, cycling was just an example. It doesn't need to be cycling. Work at home, switch from your gas guzzler, etc.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by Symmetry on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:38PM (#17699178)
Cars are bad but they're a pretty small problem compared to airplanes. A single trip across the Atlantic and back is about equivalent to commuting in a SUV for a year. Per passenger-mile cars and planes use about the same amount of carbon but people tend to take far longer plane trips.
Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by btrettel on Monday August 06, 2018 @03:21PM (#17700814)
I agree in principle.

But it seems to me that the marginal cost in terms of CO2 emissions is not exactly clear for flying. Whether I fly or not, the planes will fly. My addition to a single plane in terms of the weight is not that significant. It becomes a more murky economic argument. I agree people should not fly, but this is more of a collective action type approach in my view. It takes roughly a plane load of people to make a difference.

In contrast, a driver has much more direct control over the CO2 emissions. The marginal addition of CO2 is much clearer.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by Symmetry on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:05PM (#17701250)
If people stop or reduce flying one by one there's clearly some point at which a stepwise reduction in service occurs. Your are unlikely to be the person who triggers this but the reduction will also be proportionately larger than your contribution too. So you should think of yourself as reducing carbon emissions by the person-mile amount in expectation even if it will never actually be that amount.

Or to frame it another way, when you fly you're playing Russian roulette with adding an amount of CO2 to the atmosphere dwarfing anything else you might be causing.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by Retric on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:39AM (#17698570)
Commuting using a 50+MPG vehicle is an option for the vast majority of humanity and would make a huge difference. So, it's not like the average person has zero options. People drive ~3.22 trillion miles in the US using 142.85 billion gallons = ~22MPG so a 50% reduction is completely viable.

Further the first 50% reduction is the lowest hanging fruit. We don't need to get to 100% to make a huge difference over time.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by chosenbreed on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:45AM (#17698634)
Good points. I think even if we could muster collective action it would be required on a global scale. Related to this is that in many cases large emitters of green-house gases are largely divorced from the consequences. Ultimately most people around the world will feel some impact but it's not really a problem in the here and now. For example animal husbandry (cattle and possibly sheep) is apparently responsible for emissions of methane which is in theory has a disproportionately larger impact on raising global temperatures...but we'll have a hard time convincing people to stop eating those meats. Especially in parts of the world that are becoming more affluent, have large growing populations and are rather keen on enjoying their share of steak or leg of lamb
Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by gus_massa on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:06PM (#17698823)
Outside USA many people goes to work in public bus, train and subway. In some places they are nice, in some place they are nasty, but they consume much less fuel that a car for each person
Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by bluGill on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:46AM (#17698641)
A single person in a car is nothing. However all the cars in total are a big deal.

Even a single industrial polluter is nothing. All the cars on the road are worse than the worst single industrial plant.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by candiodari on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:43AM (#17698609)
Perhaps the problem is simply with intent.

Shutting down coal power would achieve all climate goals for several decades and we can in fact just kind of do that in most places. Government subsidies are what's keeping coal power plants online in many locations. The problem is that this would impose costs on business owners, or force banks and/or governments to pay out large sums to those business owners (not that large though: tens to hundreds of millions per plant). In other words : governments worldwide would have to scale back what they're doing for a short while to instantly destroy their climate goals.

In other words: government, elected CHOICES are what's keeping the biggest co2 producers online. Governments absolute unwillingness, in Australia's case, to pay out relatively small sums they agreed to pay decades ago, and of course not getting a budget increase out of it.

Laws that are proposed, almost without fail, go after individual, totally insignificant co2 producers, and impose large costs on individuals for marginal, or even net negative gain (e.g. well known example: for the longest time, and maybe even now, solar panels were net-negative, and certainly, in the short term that's still true. Certainly in the short term switching to solar power increases CO2 emissions, it doesn't reduce them. It may become a net positive after 10 years of constantly using the panels, under idealized conditions).

Suggested changes to individual lives, like forgoing cars entirely, impose yet larger costs but thankfully for now governments are mostly unwilling to do this.

At what point do we get to conclude that the intent of climate action parties is simply to exert power over individuals, to capture government, regardless of all costs to the climate ? That these parties not only don't care about climate change, but are actually willing to sacrifice the climate, just to gain power ?

Besides: I think it's extremely telling that nobody is willing to consider geoengineering (artificially lowering out planet's albedo). We know methods to do that, and of course all governments promptly decided that was off-limits (with, get this, "what if we're wrong" arguments. Look: either climate prediction works, or it doesn't. Denying geoengineering solutions is little better than outright denying climate change entirely).

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by WillPostForFood on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:03PM (#17698799)
It is more telling that nuclear is on the decline. The right doesn’t take the problem seriously, and the left doesn’t take the solution seriously. So of course there is no progress.
Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by candiodari on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:46PM (#17699263)
That's one of the engineering solutions that people seem to be terminally opposed to. We have global warming ... and we have engineering solutions, indeed nuclear could do a lot as well, especially in countries like China.

Let's NOT USE THOSE ! They're scary ! Science is wrong and evil ! Green glowy children !

And of course, somehow you can criticize science like nuclear and it's safety record, but shout "science denial" at people opposing climate science. That's an entirely reasonable attitude of course.

But it's very clear: getting and grabbing power, that's what it's about. Not fixing a problem.

Re:The world is losing the war against climate change by WillPostForFood on Monday August 13, 2018 @10:48PM (#17755244)
Sorry you got down votes, but I totally agree.