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Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by jancsika on Monday August 06, 2018 @01:52AM (#17695339)
> Well, finding the right one is very difficult

That sounds like a rather critical UX bug.

Just give me the instance I should sign up on in the "sign up" area of mastodon.social. Use what you think is the most suitable algorithm to cycle through a list of "appropriate" instances, where you-- the people with domain experience-- define "appropriate" for the potential user.

Otherwise you end up with this passive-aggressive situation where everybody does the obvious thing of signing up on mastodon.social, but your devs and fans take it on themselves to "teach" people not to do that because federation.

Case in point: the very first step of signing up is described as "very difficult" in this newbie guide.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by intothemild on Monday August 06, 2018 @07:03AM (#17696592)
there's two solutions to this already,

the official one: https://joinmastodon.org/ and the alternative: https://instances.social/

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by skybrian on Monday August 06, 2018 @12:32PM (#17699112)
Neither of these do what I want. Preferably I'd like to see something like a Wirecutter review.
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by pawal on Monday August 06, 2018 @02:57AM (#17695623)
Would you say the same thing about e-mail and SMTP?
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by JulianMorrison on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:13AM (#17695922)
There has historically always only been one sensible email provider. It was your ISP, and then it was gmail.
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by _emacsomancer_ on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:15AM (#17698313)
I've never used my ISP provided email. Even before gmail, I used other gmail-ish ones (hotmail, yahoo &c.)
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by WorldMaker on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:06PM (#17701268)
Just as I've tried to do with my email for a long time now, I decided to have my own Mastodon instance on a domain I control.

Email does show us a greater need in Mastodon to emphasize trust-relationships over ill-defined "social groups" as better ways to form relationships. In the early days of email, the ISP was an easily formed trust relationship, and in today's arena a lot of people have preferred trust relationships to hosts like Google (Gmail) or Microsoft (Hotmail/Outlook), etc. The "people interested in Topic X" that most of the instance lists are focused on doesn't give you any information towards trust relationships, and is possibly in the way of forming them.

The immediate problem is that those large companies like Google or Microsoft with lots established trust relationships aren't expected to play in Mastodon/ActivityPub, so you need to bootstrap new ones. Luckily, there's a lot of room for trying to bootstrap new trust relationships. Some instances have already been playing with ownership models, and companies are easy enough to form if people want to place those ownership models into transparently accountable units/liability-protected units that are recognized by larger governing bodies than just themselves.

A friend I follow, Darius (@[email protected]), has also been ruminating on this quirk in Mastodon adoption lately and trying to find ways to establish trust relationships with instances, though so far his solution is to stick to a smaller scope and start with the idea of "you trust me, so let me host your instance" among friends. That idea might scale if there were enough folks like Darius doing that, and I've sent very simple invites to possibly add friends to my instance that I control, and have been looking to come up with governance documents based on that idea, but haven't yet had anyone take me up on that invite, so I keep procrastinating it.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by jancsika on Monday August 06, 2018 @05:15PM (#17701851)
Broadly speaking, is Mastodon a healthy, non-addictive, non-abusive Twitter alternative that happens to leverage federation to achieve its aims? Or is Mastodon a FLOSS celebration of federation applied to the domain of social networking?

If it's the former, then I don't understand the problem you're describing. Why can't trust simply be a hierarchy from the Mastodon devs-- who you have to trust anyway-- down to a small, diverse set of the largest and most performant instances (as defined by those devs themselves)? That would cover the vast majority of users and still obviously leave room for anyone who wants to run their own instance.

Even if the vast majority of users/devs think it's unethical to have a hierarchy/centralization, as you point out there isn't any known alternative at present. So the only practical alternative is to punt, which inhibits adoption and hardens the implicit social group hierarchies which you point out are problematic.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by WorldMaker on Monday August 06, 2018 @06:13PM (#17702224)
The Mastodon devs don't seem interested in blessing particular instances, and even if they did, that doesn't necessarily solve trust relationship dynamics.

Most instances today advertise an interest in a topic, which is fine, but it doesn't answer a lot of questions. When the average person is looking for a trust relationship, they often aren't topic oriented, but reliability/stability-oriented. They want indicators of reliability: what's the governance model? How long is this instance expected to last/be stable? Etc.

Businesses in the real world already have a lot of that bootstrapping accomplished (because they are required so by governments, tax bodies, trading platforms, etc), so I made the suggestion that that's one way to make instance declarations towards governance models/stability/etc.

In that way, too, businesses as a model are still mostly decentralized in the way that users expect ("can take their business elsewhere"). Even if they are prone to monopolistic intents (when a profit model) and tend to accidentally centralize things.

A business model isn't the only approach of course, just one easy answer to how do you square the circle and solve the "which instance do I choose?" bootstrapping problem for a larger number of people more quickly. Even if formal businesses aren't the preferred option (though maybe they should be), the means of business government should still apply: what is the instance's constitution/bylaws/governing documents? Who holds the instance responsible in disputes? What is the cash flow and who holds that accountable?

A lot of these same business rules apply to so many organizations in one's life (your home owners' association, for one example) for good reasons of responsibility/accountability/stability.

Yes, almost all of these concerns are entirely orthogonal to the software itself and can't just be solved in software, as much as we might wish that to be the case as software developers. Running a community of almost any sort has these same needs. Brokering those community trust relationships is tough, but a deeper focus on that for Mastodon would help with adoption problems.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by phoe-krk on Monday August 06, 2018 @03:11AM (#17695684)
That's a good example. In a way, e-mail was the first federated social network, and nowadays there's no critical UX issue with "there's too many e-mail providers to choose from, there should be only one GMail for people to sign up to".

The only difference is that e-mail is "obvious" and Mastodon is new.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by gemlog on Monday August 06, 2018 @03:17AM (#17695723)
this. It doesn't matter one whit about the instance, except perhaps initially. Maybe. You choose who to read and follow and the instance doesn't matter. I already 'follow' about 80 like-minded geeks I'm interested to read each day and that's all I can keep up with. I never look at either the local timeline or the federated timeline: they are too much information; firehose. edit: and those 80-odd ppl are all over the planet on various instances in various languages.
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by s_kilk on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:12AM (#17695910)
> It doesn't matter one whit about the instance, except perhaps initially. Maybe. You choose who to read and follow and the instance doesn't matter.

Not in my experience. Mastodon doesn't really have any (good) cross-instance discovery mechanisms aside from just watching the global fire-hose, so your initial experience is formed by the other users on your instance. And the experience varies wildly from "This instance is very quiet" to "This instance is full of furries".

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by gcb0 on Monday August 06, 2018 @07:10AM (#17696629)
sound just like email or twitter or facebook before everyone's parents were on it.
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by mattmanser on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:08AM (#17695895)
Is it not like an email server then? What happens when they decide shut down their mastodon server without warning?
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by TuringTest on Monday August 06, 2018 @04:50AM (#17696056)
People can learn about service providers after they've been using the service for a while, when they understand how it works and what value it provides; it is then a good time to decide whether they want to migrate to a more stable or close provider.

The sign-up form during the first experience with the service is not the point to educate the newcomer about those issues, beyond maybe a friendly reminder of who is the one providing service to them at that point.

The sign-up process should be streamlined to make sure users arrive to a server that provides a good experience based on their interest; not on educating them about the technicalities of the service.

Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by sp332 on Monday August 06, 2018 @10:35AM (#17697918)
That's because you don't really join "Mastodon" like you don't really join "XMPP". You pick an instance that has people that you want to talk to and that lets you federate usefully with other servers. You can join multiple instances for different uses if you want, although they do mostly federate with others.
Re:How Does Mastodon Work? by remoteorbust on Monday August 06, 2018 @11:32AM (#17698485)
Yeah that's already happened and it's discoverable enough that I wandered onto one of those pages by accident when signing up.