Actually growing up in America we were taught that America is literally the most advanced and developed nation. And having visited Mainland China a few times helped cement that belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped... until I actually visited Japan and some other Asian places like Hong Kong. Japan is probably miles ahead of the US objectively in infrastructure (social and physical), standard of living, and societal harmony. It's sometimes hard to observe and appreciate because Western values differ from Japan in certain key areas that make it look like they are behind (overemphasis on toilet hygiene seems weird to Americans, but is really just an advanced standard of hygiene—the romans would have thought us weird using clean toilet paper instead of a communal vinegar-soaked sponge).

You can't really fully absorb their advancement unless you understand their culture and why certain things are the way they are.

For me, visiting mainland China cemented my belief that the rest of the world was underdeveloped, but not for the same reasons as you. China is just going way beyond the rest of the world with their development, and outside of tiny slices of a couple major metropolitan areas in America, the US feels like it's decades behind. China's a little grimy, but the progress and infrastructure growth there is unbelievable.

And toilet hygiene here in Japan is one thing that ironically lags behind America. Sure, Japan has electric toilets and people wear separate shoes to the bathroom, but I've almost never seen locals wash their hands. What I typically see is guys tap their fingertips (and I do mean just around the nail area) in water and use it to help slick their hair back after a long session in the toilet. I've even seen restaurant staff do this and it drives me crazy.

I visited China a bit earlier than you, in the late 90s and through the 2000s. You have to realize merely in the 90s pretty much all of the skyscrapera in Shanghai’s bund sprang up.

http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/06/shanghai-20-years-...

I agree that certain parts of China have succeeded US standarss (mainly certain districts of large cities) but if you venture around their levels of development are completely uneven and there are still large swaths of China wih poor infrastructure. Tap water is still not drinkable.

Re: washing hands in Japan. I’ve never observed that but maybe because they don’t have to stick their hands in their butt after using the toilet it has developed a cultural de-emphasis on hand washing? Regardless the food safety there is miles ahead of the US since you can actually eat meats raw there, including Chicken. In any case this is a perfect example of a cultural difference that masks their advancement. I don't think you can take a difference in hand washing practice and conclude that it's necessarily behind in some way. Same as how you can't conclude that their driving practices are backwards simply because they haven't advanced to the right side of the road.

You come from the US, visit china, and for some reason you think that is enough to solidify your belief?

Yes, and that’s the default for most people is to draw from their limited experiences. Most people don’t assume they are wrong until proven wrong, and even then some people power through.

>or example their unwillingness to sacrifice cultural homogeniety on the altar of economic growth.

Every time I hear this argument (and it comes up in just about every thread about Japan's economy or culture) I can't help but hear an alt-right dog whistle.

Because, of course, Japan has a long history of incorporating culture from elsewhere - both from their Asian neighbors and the West, but when you talk about "homogeneity" in relation to Japan, people tend to think first about ethnicity and race, since they're ~98% ethnically Japanese.

And I'm not entirely certain can I see the link between "cultural homogeneity" and "economic growth" ... until I realize you're talking about immigration. Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much, and the tiny, tiny fraction from elsewhere are definitely not likely to do so.

Maybe that's just me and my cooling fan is acting up, though.

I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to.

> Which is odd because most immigrants to Japan are Asian, and not likely to disturb their "cultural homogeneity" much

If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you.

> I think you hearing an alt-right dog whistle is exactly the Western-centric attitude I was referring to.

That's because the alt-right uses Japan as a proxy for its own anti-immigration and racialist views, particularly in regards to to Muslim and Eastern European immigrants. It seems to me to be a new form of Orientalism.

>If you think there's no racial tension between native Japanese and Korean/Chinese immigrants I have some news for you.

There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race."

But that tension has existed for hundreds if not thousands of years (obvious post-WW2 sentiments notwithstanding) so I don't see that contributing to the disruption of Japanese culture since it's been a constant in Japanese culture for so long.

> There definitely is, but that depends on one's definition of "race."

Oh Japanese definitely think they are apart from their neighbors even in terms of race. YOu should read what Japanese write about themselves in History books.

Looks like you got downvoted a bit, but I heard the same dog-whistle reading this comment. ng12's comment history seems relatively reasonable, but some definite strong opinions leading in that direction - particularly around gamergate, and suggesting its fine to teach a dog to give a Nazi salute, etc.

“I don't think people really realise how extreme the cultural divide between _immigrants_ and _natives_ are in the West. The US would have elected Trump in a land slide were there no _minorities_”

So whites are native to the US but blacks or hispanics aren’t?

I think you know what I meant, although I should have been clearer. I'll point out this "gotcha" style of response is very common in these kinds of conversations and it's very easy to do on people like myself who had a poor education and who's literacy ability is very low. It's normally done as a tactic of bad-faith to brand people like myself as racist or to ignore the actual point I was trying to make - which you have done.

So to respond... I probably should have said minorities both times. Immigrants is too general of a term, even minorities is a little too general, but on average, with the current immigration policies in the west we select both immigrants who have significant social-economic difference to the population residing in the country being immigrated to - that residing population being on average White and culturally European, and the immigrating population being on average non-white and culturally non-western.

Although that said, I understand some minorities are better cultural fits than the average white European so you have to be careful with generalisations here. If our immigration policies were more culturally selective it wouldn't be necessary to revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities. For example, I welcome educated culturally western middle-eastern immigrants, it's just that isn't on average what we get from the middle east immigrants. And educated culturally western immigrants tend to come from the west.

Would you like to address the more important points I made in my reply now?

I’m not entirely sure I do know what you mean. Or rather I fear I know exactly what you do.

You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you. That’s even clearer when it comes to your Trump example which is what I was attempting to point out (US non-whites being no less immigrants than whites).

The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive.

I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own.

> You are saying that “minorities” in Europe have, on a population level, radically different world views to native people. I’ve had to reword that sentence several times to avoid saying “white people”, and I think that’s the nub of the issue. What you’re introducing as a cultural issue seems on some level (statistical at best it seems) a racial issue to you.

I'm not seeing an argument here, just a moral objection to reality. Yes, statistically it would appear people from different backgrounds are really quite different. How much that is nature vs nurture I wouldn't know and I don't think is important. What I know is that there is a significant statistical difference which we don't seem to be able to heal in any western country currently running this multicultural experiment.

So then the question becomes whether or not this difference is tolerable and if it isn't what do we do about it? And you probably know my answer here, for me as a left-wing British liberal Islam is an intolerable cultural difference which I can not morally allow to take root in my country. So the only moral answer I have is to stop this experiment while we still can. I don't believe it's immoral to have borders, but it is (in my opinion) immoral to allow my country to become more Islamic, or to deport people for having different beliefs later down the line. So I see a need to stop this in a peaceful way as soon as possible while we still can.

> The problem for me is that taking a racial approach to political or moral issues is repellent, it simply isn’t acceptable to me to “revert to cultural generalisations of different races and ethnicities”, its lazy and utterly counterproductive.

Well I disagree that I'm taking a racial approach. I don't care about race, I care about the statistical reality of mass immigration into my country. If my country decided to import tens of thousands of white people from the Westboro Baptist Church I would object just as strongly. I don't believe any far-right religious group is in my countries best interest to welcome and I don't believe you can easily integrate these kinds of dogmatic people.

But fine, if you object what's your solution? Do you think I'm glad that mass immigration isn't working? Do you think I'm glad that different groups of people from around the world seem to want different things, or how we've welcomed these ideological conflicts into our countries?

Please understand I think your position is immoral and objectionable too. I think your ignoring reality which will only result in political (and enviably racial) conflict - which seems to be exactly what's happening in Europe and the US today.

So if you disagree, please offer solutions. Unless of course you think it's okay that London is now becoming increasingly homophobic and rife with terrorism and homicide? Polling in the UK suggests that around half of Muslims in the UK believe in Sharia law, and at the rate Pew Research believes the Muslim population will grow in the UK over the next few decades that stat should really really frighten you.

I want a humane and moral outcome too. And I believe restricting immigration as soon as possible is the most moral solution we currently have. I wish it could be different. I used to be pro-open borders, but I changed my mind after having conversations like this. The statistics pose an obvious problem to anyone like myself with left-wing sensibilities.

> I think it’s unfair to say I’m attacking you in bad-faith - my comment was very much material to what I saw as being generally wrong in your argument. For what it’s worth I saw and see no indication whatsoever that your literacy is less than my own. I hoped you would read the inconsistency I pointed out and see that it copperfastened the racial element of your argument. I see now you already know that. I’m not interested in debating your own experiences since they are your own.

Alright, I'm sorry if I jumped the gun a little there. You have to understand as someone who holds the positions I do I get people trying to accuse me of racism as a way of dismissing my arguments all the time. It's exhausting.

This is the wrong forum for this kind of ethno-nationalistic trolling.