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Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:32PM (#17657399)
> And these costs aren’t incidental, something that can be innovated away. As Brunnermeier and Abadi point out, the high costs — making it expensive to create a new Bitcoin, or transfer an existing one — are essential to the project of creating confidence in a decentralized system.

No they aren't. See: Proof of stake, Lightning network.

> Bitcoin is real without knowing who issued it, so you need the digital equivalent of biting a gold coin to be sure it’s the real deal, and the costs of producing something that satisfies that test have to be high enough to discourage fraud.

This is a pretty wildly inaccurate analogy of why the Bitcoin network uses mining.

> Bear in mind that conventional money generally does its job quite well. Transaction costs are low.

To pay in cash, yes. To pay digitally? You're paying high credit card fees. So, no, not really.

> The purchasing power of a dollar a year from now is highly predictable – orders of magnitude more predictable than that of a Bitcoin.

Disingenuous argument. If the US dollar were invented 10 years ago, it'd be highly volatile today too. The fact that Bitcoin is volatile today is only relevant if you are going to argue that that volatility is inherent to cryptocurrencies. An argument which may be valid, but that Paul fails to make.

> Using a bank account means trusting a bank, but by and large banks justify that trust, far more so than the firms that hold cryptocurrency tokens.

Because using a cryptocurrency does not require trusting anyone.

> But gold does have real-world uses, both for jewelry and for things like filling teeth, that provide a weak but real tether to the real economy.

You mean the way darknet markets provide a weak but real tether to the real economy? You literally just enumerated Bitcoin's tether's to the real economy. Also, the idea that the gold market is in any way meaningfully tethered to its industrial usage is a complete joke.

There are really great arguments against Bitcoin and crypto-currencies. All of which Paul Krugman completely fails to make in this piece. The best of which he's positioned to make, too! Bitcoin is a deflationary asset - that's a real problem for anything trying to be a currency. That's a great case against it, and one close to Krugman's heart.

This article is seriously disappointing.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:45PM (#17657501)
> To pay in cash, yes. To pay digitally? You're paying high credit card fees. So, no, not really.

I wonder what high credit card fees you are talking about. As a consumer, I pay none of them. In fact, I get money back every time I purchase something with my credit card (in addition to getting a bunch of other benefits, like purchase protection, extended insurance/warranty, ability to charge back, etc).

As far as I know, none of this is available in the cryptocurrency world, and more importantly, all of the cryptocurrencies that I know of do charge a transaction fee, which cannot compete with $0 flat (not to mention cash back).

Crypto currencies have interesting features, but low transaction fees vs CC isn't one of them.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:49PM (#17657536)
> I wonder what high credit card fees you are talking about. As a consumer, I pay none of them.

That's not how economics works. You are still paying.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by wlesieutre on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:02PM (#17657648)
Do you though? Except for gas, everything I buy costs the same whether I pay cash or credit. If a store started accepting bitcoins, I doubt they're going to recalculate the price to be lower than the cash price because you don't have a credit card transaction fee.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:07PM (#17657691)
We collectively pay, as a society. Credit card fees are a tax on commerce.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by nradov on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:57PM (#17658053)
Cash transactions aren't free either. The merchant has to pay for security, transport, and typically suffers some "leakage". Depending on the type of business and location those can end up being even more expensive than payment card fees.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Thursday August 02, 2018 @02:12PM (#17673925)
Yep, absolutely true. No free lunch.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by pbreit on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:15PM (#17657751)
Except that the bulk of the fees to the merchant are paid back out to cardholders in the form of rewards and cashback. So it's closer to a wash.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @11:34AM (#17663446)
Someone seems to have computed the cash vs CC money flow: https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy-discuss...

"On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year."

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:31PM (#17657869)
Visa still managed to make $15 billion in gross profit last year. Seems pretty significant to me.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by pbreit on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @08:49PM (#17658712)
On $7.4 trillion in volume. So about 0.2%.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @02:01AM (#17660061)
I'd call that a lot.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by gray_-_wolf on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:08PM (#17657698)
You do. The store just gets higher margin on cash-paying customers.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @11:24PM (#17659409)
He is the consumer, so he doesn't, because as you pointed out, it's the store that is on the hook for CC "transaction fees", not the consumer.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by PretzelPirate on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @11:45PM (#17659480)
Many small businesses raise their prices to offset credit card processing fees. Because of that, the consumer is paying the fee regardless of whether they pay in cash or with a card.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @11:34AM (#17663454)
Apparently not: https://www.bostonfed.org/publications/public-policy-discuss...

"Merchant fees and reward programs generate an implicit monetary transfer to credit card users from non-card (or "cash" ) users because merchants generally do not set differential prices for card users to recoup the costs of fees and rewards. On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year."

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by PretzelPirate on Wednesday August 08, 2018 @04:54PM (#17719379)
This is interesting.

I was going off of the information I've received from small business owners in the Seattle area who I've formed personal relationships with, and who have told me how they increased their prices specifically to offset the cost of credit card fees.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @10:15PM (#17659130)
That's a mysterious response. Can you elaborate on how I'm paying?
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by zxcmx on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @10:36PM (#17659206)
The TL;DR is that the point where some kind of tax or fee is collected (in this case it is charged to businesses) does not have that much influence on who ends up really "paying" for it.

That's going to depend on market dynamics between buyers and sellers.

The long version is, read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence and replace "government" and "tax" with "VISA" and "transaction fees".

To be honest I don't know who "really" pays but I'm certain that "I don't see any fees on my bill and I paid the cash price" is not the right way to read the situation.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by magnetic on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @10:53PM (#17659280)
Well, as a business owner, I do have some idea of who "really pays" as you put it. When I charge my customers with Credit Card, I get charged a CC fee (around 2.9%). It's not that there is a free lunch anywhere: the merchants pay for it, as well as some consumers who pay interest on their balances, and some consumers who want special features from their CC.

But as a consumer myself, leaving debt part of the equation aside (since it is irrelevant to the transaction itself), I pay zero transaction fees with my CC, whereas I'd have to pay a significant fee with a cryptocurrency.

More annoying is that the cryptocurrency fee would be charged every time I make a payment. Looking at my CC statement, I can see I & wife made about 50 CC transactions last month, which would result in a significant "monthly fee" if we had used Bitcoin for example (to pick the most "widely adopted" cryptocurrency).

Like I mentioned above, cryptocurrency has very specific key positive aspects, but low transaction fees aren't one of them.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by zxcmx on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @11:08PM (#17659353)
Sorry, my response was just addressing credit card payments, I hadn't really thought about the crypto aspects of this before.

Totally agree that on a practical basis it would be crazy to try and justify the utility of crypto to the average person based on "lower fees" since they are exorbitant for all but very large transactions.

My point with CC fees was, merchants "pay" but the open question is: are prices in a given market perhaps a bit (even just 1 or 2%) higher than they would be if card transactions were free? If so, exactly how much? Does this differ across different markets / product categories and how much? This is the kind of thing one would need to figure out to know who is "really" eating the fees.

My intuition is that whether the charges can be passed through to the consumer via higher prices is going to depend on the market (say supermarkets vs luxury goods) but I'm not aware of any research on this.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by bdcravens on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:59PM (#17657620)
Yet no one is making that a surcharge. So if I pay with crypto, I'm paying twice, as the credit card cost are presumably baked in for all.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:09PM (#17657705)
That's because up until recently credit card companies required merchants to charge the same prices. They had the power to do this because they are basically a cartel.

But yes, you're right. You would be paying twice, just like you're still paying once even if you pay with cash. This is a real problem, but it's not an inherent flaw in cryptocurrencies, IMO. Just a practical consequence of our existing financial system. That doesn't make it any less real, but it's "not Bitcoin's fault" so to speak.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by UncleEntity on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:14PM (#17657740)
And if I pay in cash I'm also paying the baked in credit card cost.

Rationally one would think that if some cryptocoin did see large scale adoption then it would have the same effect as credit cards where the consumer doesn't actually see the transaction costs.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by whb07 on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:07PM (#17657694)
Lol what. There’s a gas station near my house that has a sign on the pump “cash $2.30/g, credit card: $2.45/g”. Consumers always are passed the cost because it’s they are the ones holding the purse.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by pbreit on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:13PM (#17657736)
A decent amount of cash-only and cash-preferred is tax avoidance.

Cash pricing at gas stations is pretty rare in my experience and somewhat violates the merchant's credit card processing agreement.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by mabbo on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:22PM (#17657806)
Most credit card company contracts explicitly say stores can't do that. I'll bet if a visa rep drove by and took a photo, that gas station wouldn't be taking credit cards at all a week later.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by pbreit on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:11PM (#17657713)
> credit card fees

Credit cards are the highest transaction fees and almost entirely due to the need to keep paying users to use them (ie all the rewards points and cash back).

Debit card transactions are much less (due to legislation).

And bank transfers are a dime.

Companies like Starbucks have brought the costs even lower by bundling up transactions.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by Devils_Avocado on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:54PM (#17657573)
The CC fee gets baked into the price, so you don't notice it - if a store takes card payments then all its products are ~2% higher than they would be otherwise.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by paulgb on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:44PM (#17657498)
> No they aren't. See: Proof of stake, Lightning network.

LN doesn't really solve the energy problem because the incentive for miners to compete is still dominated by the mining reward rather than transaction costs. As long as there is competitive mining, the resources used for mining will approach the block reward.

Proof of stake is interesting but I don't think it's been used at scale yet has it?

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @05:50PM (#17657549)
> LN doesn't really solve the energy problem because the incentive for miners to compete is still dominated by the mining reward rather than transaction costs.

You're right, it doesn't solve the energy problem. LN solves the fee problem. The energy problem is addressed by something like proof of stake.

> Proof of stake is interesting but I don't think it's been used at scale yet has it?

It's been used in a number of non-major cryptocurrencies. Its been analyzed quite a bit though, and there are high-value (in the sense of market cap - i.e. large bounty for someone to exploit it, if it were possible) working implementations out there.

Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by jmull on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @09:34PM (#17658936)
You haven't solved the fee problem if you haven't solved the energy problem.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @03:31PM (#17666121)
I'm not sure what your reasoning here is, but you're wrong. LN basically allows you to dramatically expand the number of transactions per block. The blocks still take energy to mine, but the per-transaction fee gets sharply reduced.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by paulgb on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:11PM (#17657712)
Do you see a solution to the energy use problem that doesn't involve a massive devaluation of Bitcoin?
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:28PM (#17657850)
Right now, proof of stake seems like the best solution to the energy problem. AFAIK, bitcoin is not looking to implement PoS, so my bet is on Ethereum to address this issue.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by keymone on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @09:49PM (#17658995)
There is no “energy problem”. Energy spent mining bitcoin is the price paid for security of the ledger in in-cheatable currency of the universe. Proof of stake systems are all castles in the air in that regard.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @03:31PM (#17666127)
If they are castles in the air, then why do they work?
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by keymone on Wednesday August 01, 2018 @03:57PM (#17666367)
markets are often irrational.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by darawk on Thursday August 02, 2018 @12:32PM (#17672812)
Ok, but proof of stake is a security model. So what you're claiming is not just that markets are irrational, but that thieves can steal all this money, and are just choosing not to. Since people are constantly stealing money in the crypto world, I find that pretty hard to believe.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by keymone on Friday August 03, 2018 @04:28AM (#17678150)
in proof of work security is paid for in energy. in proof of stake security is paid for in currency of the system. if this circular property doesn't bother you - fine, but it bothers me.
Re:Transaction Costs and Tethers: Why I’m a Crypto Skeptic by IanCal on Tuesday July 31, 2018 @06:24PM (#17657822)
> To pay in cash, yes. To pay digitally? You're paying high credit card fees. So, no, not really

What high fees do you mean? Credit card fees in the EU are capped at 0.3% iirc.