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Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by evgen on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:47AM (#17591162)
Apple I, Mac, Pixar, iPhone.... that guy Jobs was sure a lucky person. I wonder if there is a word for people who have that sort of consistent luck...
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by Drdrdrq on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:25AM (#17591539)
...and iPad, iPod, which were achievements in themselves. I agree with you it's not luck, he simply knew how to create a product that fills the needs of the market. But I also think that his managerial style was unacceptable, and had nothing to do with Apple's success. As far as Pixar is concerned, he actually kept the distance on purpose (there's a great book "Creativity Inc" by Catmull) which shows it's not his management that is worth copying.
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:53AM (#17591181)
Yes, there is: outlier.
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by evgen on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:53AM (#17591187)
How do those sour grapes taste?
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Monday July 23, 2018 @03:54AM (#17591191)
Given that I asked for them, they taste delicious.
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by gaius on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:36AM (#17591581)
I wonder if there is a word for people who have that sort of consistent luck...

That word is Woz. If Jobs had not met him, he (Jobs) would have died penniless and alone.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by saagarjha on Monday July 23, 2018 @05:55AM (#17591645)
Had Wozniak not met Jobs there would have been no Apple–most likely he'd just be a gifted engineer working at an above-average position at some technology company that's likely not even around today because Apple ate its lunch. Also keep in mind that the last product that Wozniak really had a hand in was Apple II.
Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by amyjess on Monday July 23, 2018 @11:58AM (#17593610)
I have a feeling that if Woz and Jobs had never met, Woz's life would have turned out much like that of Gary Kildall [0] or Phil Katz [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Katz

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Monday July 23, 2018 @09:22AM (#17592520)
Well, let's look at what Jobs did without Woz and compare it to what Woz did without Jobs.

Jobs - the Mac, Next, Pixar, iPod, iPhone, iPad, the physical Apple Stores....

Woz - the first universal programmable remote.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Monday July 23, 2018 @06:15PM (#17596468)
Well, let's compare what each of them actually engineered:

Woz - Breakout for Atari, the first universal programmable remote, the Apple I, and so on

Jobs - ... (had a strong opinion about buttons and money he made off of Wozniak's inventions and his ability to sell them)

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Monday July 23, 2018 @06:31PM (#17596563)
Computer geeks are a dime a dozen (I’m one so no insult intended).

An idea is nothing without execution. Jobs proved that he could successfully change multiple industries (animation, music, mobile) without Woz. None of Woz’s ventures have been a success without Jobs.

If it was so easy, why couldn’t anyone else in the PC industry do it including companies that were in a much stronger position when Jobs came back in 1997?

Even in the animation business, Disney could barely produce a hit while Pixar was producing a string of successes.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Monday July 23, 2018 @10:23PM (#17597665)
I can't show you examples of how badly your statements are mistaken if you aren't willing to look for them yourself.

Dell (just in time supply chain design and driving the cost of the PC down), Pixar (not related to Jobs until acquisition, certainly not driven by him), Woz (breakout was certainly a success - Jobs was assigned to build the prototype at Atari and essentially stole a large part of Woz's compensation and even then Woz is given credit for the design alongside Bushnell; in a sense it was assigned to Jobs essentially because he was Woz's friend) are all counter examples to your statements.

In 1997, anything computer related was experiencing the dot-com boom. It would've been hard to screw up Apple's increasing valuation then, for anyone.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @12:29AM (#17598116)
Dell - was far from the cheapest PC manufacturer. Around 1999, Emachines was much cheaper than Dells. They were literally giving computers away to sign up for 3 years worth of internet service. How was Dell doing in 2005?

Dell never shipped as many products in their heyday that Apple was shipping by 2010. No one would ever say that Dells logistics were better than Tim Cooks even when shipping 50 million iPods a year, let alone iPhones.

Pixar was bought from Lucas and their grand ambition was to make special effects for other movies and commercials. Definitely not to make full length theatrically released movies.

In 1997, the Internet was the big thing, but not Apple. Apple was near bankruptcy and didn’t announce its first profit until 2001.

Breakout netted Jobs around $3000 from the stories that were told. Not exactly billionaire material.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @12:42AM (#17598166)
The point is that Woz was successful without Jobs and that Jobs's Apple was by no means a singular innovator in the field. The point is to say that it's a bit rich to claim what has been claimed in regards to the necessity of Jobs.

That said, I do grant that Jobs certainly had skill in gathering the right people and ensuring things got done.

What I abhor is the manor in which that was accomplished and the canonisation of Jobs as an individual singularly responsible for everything created by Apple without regard to the hard, bloody work of the hidden legions of staff and burnt out engineers beneath him.

For me, personally, the human cost of Jobs's methods far far outweighed the value of what was created; especially when it was likely to have been arrived at independently by others through less destructive methods.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @01:09AM (#17598251)
If it could have been done by others, then why wasn’t it? In 1997, Apple was nearly bankrupt. When the iPod came out in 2001, Apple was just barely eking out a profit.

Why couldn’t Microsoft, RIM, Motorola, Google or Nokia do something similar to the iPhone?

Even today, with dozens of companies making Android phones, none can create a phone compelling enough that people are willing to pay enough for to make them profitably.

But as far as what Jobs did with iTunes, Bill Gates himself praised Jobs....

https://gizmodo.com/5468666/microsoft-knew-they-got-burned-w...

Steve Jobs ability to focus in on a few things that count, get people who get user interface right and market things as revolutionary are amazing things.

This time somehow he has applied his talents in getting a better Licensing deal than anyone else has gotten for music.

——-

Apple without regard to the hard, bloody work of the hidden legions of staff and burnt out engineers beneath him.

All of the “burnt out engineers” who worked on the original iPhone could easily write their own ticket for the rest of their life. Given a choice between being able to say that I worked on the original iPhone and that I did yet another software as a service CRUD app, I would much rather have been able to say I worked on the original iPhone.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:05AM (#17599865)
An equivalent product to the iPod, the Creative NOMAD Jukebox, was also released around 2000-2001.

The iPhone launched around June 2007, iirc. The T-Mobile G1 launched around September of 2008. The iPhone did not receive an App Store until v2 of the device a year later. Android launched with all core functionality.

I think it's safe to safe that if they had waited until the product was fully baked -- they would've launched at about the exact same time.

I don't really care what Bill Gates's opinion of Steve Jobs is, his opinions don't hold much weight with me.

As to burnt-out engineers "writing their own ticket" ... well, if they're tired of working at a place like Apple -- I seriously doubt they'd enjoy working for a place that wants to be just like them and hires people with a history of working there in an attempt to emulate them.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @07:26AM (#17599988)
An equivalent product to the iPod, the Creative NOMAD Jukebox, was also released around 2000-2001.

Saying the Nomad - a larger player that used a 3.5 inch hard drive, with a worse interface was “just like the iPod” so not gets why the iPod was better it’s actually a famous Slashdot Meme on why geeks can’t release great products.

“No wireless, less space than a Nomad...lame”

https://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/apple-releases-i...

As far as the G1 coming out a year after the iPhone and would have come out about the same time, you don’t know the history of Android. Android was originally designed to be an BlackBerry clone. After the iPhone came out, they completely went back to the drawing board.

https://www.technobuffalo.com/2011/10/27/android-before-and-...

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by justinjlynn on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @10:32AM (#17601343)
A complete hardware and software interface redesign with testing and certification in under a year? By a new entrant in the hardware space with external partners? By Google? Sure, I believe that... - it's more likely that a number of prototypes were made. Guess which was picked? The one that competed most effectively with the nearest competition, of course.

Also, yes, the iPod was lame. It was worse than the nomad in many many technical respects. Now, what the iPod did have over the nomad was the only best-of-class thing Apple has ever sold - the perception of cool. It was smaller, it was silver and white... it had one button (well, later anyway...).

Apple tech is very much a fashion accessory in addition to being a technical instrument but that does not make it visionary or superior. Often, quite the opposite (butterfly keyboard failures, poorly spec'd expensive pro everything, insufficient flawed VRM design on the latest core i9 macbook, etc etc). However, the superior product, in the functional sense, doesn't always win in the market place.

Actually, now that I think about it, Apple is not really a tech company; they're a fashion company that makes products who's primary purpose is as a technical fashion accessory. It performs its purported function perfunctorily, if not unreliably or begrudgingly and, of course, if it can't do something or doesn't work right you shouldn't have wanted to do it at all ("you're holding it wrong"). However, what it's real function, what it is best at, is permitting membership to a cool kids club - the club of owning and displaying Apple products.

When you think about it like that, their attitude, the lacklustre functionality of their products in deference to appearance, and the behaviour of their customers makes much more sense.

Jobs reportedly acted far more like a stereotypical fashion designer out of a fantasy than a reasonable human being or typical Tech-firm CEO.

Granted, perhaps a stereotypical fashion designer who's never really sewn competently in their life nor can design by drawing up real plans for others to build. But, of course, they've had armies of competent fashion engineers working themselves to the bone to produce design after design and the designer really knows what they like, once they see it anyway, maybe, so there's that. Naturally, nobody cares about where those plans come from and at what cost - it only matters that the blessed one chose them as the true way.

Apple is very much like a Warholian art factory, now without a Warhol; but I digress.

It's no wonder firms trying to imitate Apple fail. Apple doesn't have to be superior or right - they just have to play cool. The perception of cool is built by luck and timing and maintained by luck and skill. Jobs was an outlier in these areas, and so, we see the exception rather than the rule. Jobs and Apple are little more than anomalies maintained by the efforts of a cast of millions, the public included.

Ah, and it all falls into place. There's no point to arguing with people who have bought into Apple or the Jobs myths. One may as well debate the meaning of Duchamp's Fountain in the context of the semiconductor. It's pointless masturbation with little to no possibility of real change or outcome other than increasing local entropy, for these people have already chosen willingly the Apple option - to think different, as it were.

And with that, I resign from this particular thread of discussion knowing that at the least I have explained and explored why I feel so strongly with regards to the façade Jobs built in Apple and its influence on how people both see and do not see the manipulation beyond the technical in technical products.

A suitable explanation for myself, at least, if no one else.

Re:What was it like to be a software engineer at NeXT? by scarface74 on Tuesday July 24, 2018 @12:05PM (#17602295)
A complete hardware and software interface redesign with testing and certification in under a year? By a new entrant in the hardware space with external partners? By Google? Sure, I believe that... - it's more likely that a number of prototypes were made. Guess which was picked? The one that competed most effectively with the nearest competition, of course.

This was no secret that Google retooled the entire Android form factor after the iPhone came out. This story has been told a million times.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/12/the-d...

Also, yes, the iPod was lame. It was worse than the nomad in many many technical respects. Now, what the iPod did have over the nomad was the only best-of-class thing Apple has ever sold - the perception of cool. It was smaller, it was silver and white... it had one button (well, later anyway...).

And this is why geeks (not an insult, I proudly consider myself a geek) who think like Woz will never bring a successful product to market. The Nomad was a big bulky portable device with a large 3.5 inch hard drive, a slower transfer mechanism than FireWire, less battery life, and a clunky method of transferring files.

By the time the iPod became popular in 2004, iPod + iTunes was a easy way to get music on a device that consumers enjoyed.

Actually, now that I think about it, Apple is not really a tech company; they're a fashion company that makes products who's primary purpose is as a technical fashion accessory.

You realize that Apple has the best ARM processor designers in the industry?

If all Apple has is “cool” tech then why is the rest of the industry failing? All of the computer manufacturers that were around 20 years ago are either dead or barely surviving, the phone manufacturers are not doing much better.

Like the old saying goes, “if they are so smart, why aren’t they rich”?