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Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:12PM (#1756889)
what is bothering me in all such cases is the emphasis of the religious grounds for the things like long hair. It sounds like a guy insisting on long hair because of religion would have more "right" for it than one who'd just happen to prefer his hair long. Why such preferential treatment of religion?
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:25PM (#1756963)
"It sounds like a guy insisting on long hair because of religion would have more "right" for it than one who'd just happen to prefer his hair long."

That is correct. For instance, during Prohibition in the United States, use of wine in communion services was permitted, despite its illegality elsewhere.

Basically, society has judged that deeply held religious beliefs are more worthy of protection than mere personal preferences.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:48PM (#1757058)
>Basically, society has judged that deeply held religious beliefs are more worthy of protection than mere personal preferences.

Sounds like a deep religious belief which have no written support in the current laws or the Constitution of USA.

Of course there are successful cases of lobbying for a privilege like the one you mentioned - an especially funny one considering that the churches were the main driving force behind the Prohibition, yet carved out an exception for themselves.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Monday October 04, 2010 @05:58PM (#1757656)
"Sounds like a deep religious belief which have no written support in the current laws or the Constitution of USA."

Actually, the US Constitution prevents the government from establishing an official religion or from prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Federal law extends this protection of religion into the commercial sphere by preventing employers from discriminating on the basis of religion (unless it is a religious organization, or the employee's religion would somehow interfere with the job).

"an especially funny one considering that the churches were the main driving force behind the Prohibition, yet carved out an exception for themselves."

Prohibition is an interesting case, as it was actually one religious group (low-church Protestants) lobbying for it over the objections of another (Catholics and some high-church Protestants).

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @07:00PM (#1757890)
yes, the law prevents anybody from interfering into your personal religious beliefs or from making various economic, social, political, etc... decisions based on your religion. Ie. you're guaranteed to have the same rights as anybody else. Nothing in the law guarantees you preferential treatment or more rights just because of your religious beliefs or practice.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Monday October 04, 2010 @07:24PM (#1757974)
That's not the case. As a matter of law, actions undertaken for religious reasons are more protected than actions undertaken for mere personal preference. You may disagree with this approach, but that's a different question.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:23PM (#1756955)
Because it is a violation of federal law to discriminate against a candidate for employment over race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

That this suggests hairstyle requirements in dress codes are a complete waste of time is a valid but orthogonal point.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @03:37PM (#1757018)
in this case the guy was clearly discriminated over his long hairs, not over his religion. The employer would presumably do the same to any long haired guy.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Monday October 04, 2010 @06:01PM (#1757670)
His hairstyle is part of his religious practice. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafarianism#Locks
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @07:04PM (#1757912)
where is in the law it is said that you must accommodate and bent over to whatever quirk/fantasy my pastor/guru can come up with?

Lets say there are 2 guys - one with long hair as personal preference, another - as part of religious practice. The company would fire the number #1 because he doesn't follow the dress code, yet coudlnt' fire #2 because of religion. Is this what the law provides for?

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Monday October 04, 2010 @07:42PM (#1758030)
Yes, this is what the law provides for. See the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's guidelines: http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/religion.html#_Toc203359518

-- A religious accommodation claim is distinct from a disparate treatment claim, in which the question is whether employees are treated equally. An individual alleging denial of religious accommodation is seeking an adjustment to a neutral work rule that infringes on the employee’s ability to practice his religion. The accommodation requirement is “plainly intended to relieve individuals of the burden of choosing between their jobs and their religious convictions, where such relief will not unduly burden others.”[118]

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Monday October 04, 2010 @08:03PM (#1758081)
i don't believe my eyes. You're right, and i was wrong. The law does provide for preferential treatment on the basis of religion. Time for non-religious people to stand up and fight against the discrimination

Btw, thank you for the information and bearing up with me :)

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by run4yourlives on Monday October 04, 2010 @08:33PM (#1758142)
Um, before you go on a crusade you might want to re-think the consequences: Freedom of religious expression guarantees the right to no have a religion.

As in it's just as illegal to only hire Christians than it is to not hire one.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Tuesday October 05, 2010 @03:02PM (#1760948)
you're missing the point. A company can not fire a religious guy over long hair and can fire a non-religious one with the same hair length and dirtiness. That is discrimination, a penalty for being non-religious.
Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by run4yourlives on Tuesday October 05, 2010 @05:05PM (#1761488)
Considering you are perfectly free to join the exact same religion and have the same protections, it is not.

The fact that your choosing to not join the religion - also your protected right - doesn't come with exactly the same perks is not grounds for discrimination.

I consider the fact that I'm not mandated by the government to pray to Mecca three times a day at work a pretty acceptable trade off.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @02:28PM (#1784357)
>Considering you are perfectly free to join the exact same religion and have the same protections

thank you, i couldn't say it better myself. Reminds me about Medieval Europe - either join the religion or burn at stake.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Tuesday October 05, 2010 @05:45PM (#1761640)
Actually, that doesn't constitute discrimination.

Consider the case of a disabled worker in a wheelchair. The employer is required to make reasonable accommodations if the employee is otherwise suited for the job. That doesn't mean that the US discriminates against the non-disabled.

Incidentally, the same law protects the atheist with a tattoo of His Noodliness* as a statement of non-belief, as well as the Christian with a tattoo of the Cross.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Tuesday October 12, 2010 @02:36PM (#1784385)
>disabled worker in a wheelchair

it isn't a matter of personal choice. Brandishing off one's religion is a matter of the one's personal choice.

>Incidentally, the same law protects the atheist with a tattoo of His Noodliness* as a statement of non-belief

don't know about employment law. In the immigration law your religion needs to have a registered tax free church in the US , otherwise it isn't a religion

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Wednesday October 13, 2010 @02:24PM (#1788259)
"Brandishing off one's religion is a matter of the one's personal choice."

The issue is that you can come up with all sorts of interesting restrictions that are theoretically neutral, but amount to de facto religious discrimination. For instance, consider a store owner who hates Islam, but knows better than to say so for fear of being sued. Instead the store owner prohibits employees from wearing head scarves. Presto! Now most Muslim women would be unable to work there.

It's to prevent these supposedly neutral rules that the law of reasonable accommodation is in place.

"needs to have a registered tax free church in the US , otherwise it isn't a religion"

This is limited to particular circumstances like data collection, but doesn't apply to religious freedom laws (like the employment law).

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Thursday October 14, 2010 @05:15AM (#1790326)
>Instead the store owner prohibits employees from wearing head scarves. Presto! Now most Muslim women would be unable to work there.

Instead the store owner forces employees to wear head scarves. Presto! Now most non-religious women would be unable to work there. Unfortunately, there is no law that can help them. This asymmetry is a discrimination against non-religious citizens.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by joshuacc on Thursday October 14, 2010 @08:44AM (#1790672)
"Now most non-religious women would be unable to work there."

Not true. Most non-religious women have no problem with head scarves.

"This asymmetry is a discrimination against non-religious citizens."

Asymmetry != discrimination. The asymmetry of the law is due to the asymmetry of religious discrimination. Namely, it is easy to target religion for discrimination with "neutral" laws, while it is hard to target non-religion for discrimination with "neutral" laws.

This is due to the fact that the non-religious are free to do or not do these things (head scarves, dreadlocks, etc.), while the religious have no choice if they are to be faithful to their beliefs.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by VladRussian on Thursday October 14, 2010 @02:39PM (#1792054)
>Asymmetry != discrimination. The asymmetry of the law is due to the asymmetry of religious discrimination.

yep. asymmetry of religious discrimination. It is definitely here. If history is any indicator, the religious discrimination, especially in its most nightmarish forms, has almost always been perpetrated by religious people (just of another religion), and not by non-religious people

>Namely, it is easy to target religion for discrimination with "neutral" laws, while it is hard to target non-religion for discrimination with "neutral" laws.

absolutely unfounded claim. There are a lot of religious practices, that if "dress-coded" would prevent, for example, me from going there, and i'd have no "religious accommodation" way of getting around them.

Re:Are Dreadlocks Unprofessional? by tptacek on Monday October 04, 2010 @08:37PM (#1758150)
Or, I know! How about we stop using positions of economic authority as a cudgel to get them to wear their hair in certain ways?