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Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @07:48PM (#17554523)
I think custom hardware would make sense on custom infrastructure: small 2m wide tracks dedicated to rapid electric transit pods, tucked under and along side the main roads. It would simplify the design a lot to the point where you could build it using 80s technology, simple automation, since there are no pedestrians or non-pod vehicles.

If you could build the pods on the cheap, cities would love it as an affordable alternative to subway and tunnels - it's much cheaper to dig a 4x2m concrete box under the main road then massive tunnels and stations.

In time, as the network expands, full self driving can be added and the vehicles can exit the network and drive the last miles on regular roads to the traveler's front door in the suburbs.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by akhilcacharya on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @09:41PM (#17554997)
My school is working on it - ecoprt.com

But it’s NC State and not Top4, so don’t expect anything to come out of it.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by 21 on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @07:52PM (#17554538)
> it's much cheaper to dig

It still costs money. And where should the exits be? If they are far apart this doesn't work. And the prospect of being underground for a long trip is not that thrilling.

You're basically proposing a boiling the ocean kind of solution.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:07PM (#17554617)
It's quite easy to envision some ramps where the vehicle steers out of the main underground lane and ascends on a 20% incline for 10m, stops into a station not dissimilar to any other public transit station, with multiple platforms so multiple passengers can embark at the same time in different pods.

When passengers are secure, another ramp takes them back down - or even the same one, with proper synchronization on less busy stops. It would then drive the passengers to any station in the network with almost the same flexibility as a self driving car.

I would say the cost differentials to subway are massive, one order of magnitude for similar passenger throughputs. And it's not some unproven, highly speculative technology like self driving cars, it's something that could be built today with low tech (but I concede, high capital investment).

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by Retric on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:24PM (#17554693)
Like most people you vastly underestimate just how many passengers a subway moves. You need to move ~10 people per second through to match a subway's capacity. (2 directions * almost 200 per car * 10 cars per ~5 minutes.)

Self driving pods could work but you would basically need to dig tunnels as big as current subway tunnels to deal with the traffic + breakdowns etc.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:40PM (#17554758)
At the limit, with proper design a stream of pods can act almost like an endless, continuous train - no subway network can beat that. But even if we accept a 2s spacing between pods, human level reaction times, that's still around 1 passenger per second per lane (with minimal 2 person/pod packing), or 15% of your peak subway estimate per direction. You should also factor the much higher efficiency of a system with no train changes, where the pod occupancy is optimized to avoid those empty returns to the busy area, where you don't have to dig a whole tunnel worth of capacity (6 tracks) at the terminus stations since one is enough for the traffic there, that can dynamically switch track direction depending on demand during the day etc.

Bear in mind, a subway tunnel for a single train has a diameter of about 7m, or about ten times the area (and dirt volume to be moved, and concrete to be poured) of a 2x2m lane.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by hexane360 on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @09:03PM (#17554856)
You're ignoring the near-fixed costs to building tunnels: right-of-way, ventilation, maintenance. Even then, your 2 second gap is a pipe dream, not technically but logistically. You need scheduling flexibility to maintain such small gaps. Whether it's long wait times at stations, long detours to avoid congested routes, or keeping the system significantly below capacity, you can't assume that both a) pods can get on and off at will and b) there's a continuous flow of pods.

>You should also factor the much higher efficiency of a system with no train changes, where the pod occupancy is optimized to avoid those empty returns to the busy area

How do you avoid empty returns to the busy area? You still need to supply the pods, and if your solution is underfilling pods on the way back, that's exactly the same as sending a light train.

>where you don't have to dig a whole tunnel worth of capacity (6 tracks) at the terminus stations since one is enough for the traffic there

This is only an advantage at small scales. At higher scales, one train tunnel is just enough at the terminus stations, and the busier routes have more.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @10:21PM (#17555143)
> your 2 second gap is a pipe dream, not technically but logistically. You need scheduling flexibility to maintain such small gaps.

A 2 second gap means that a pod needs to sync and squeeze between two vehicles 4 seconds apart, or 45m at 40Km/h. That's three seconds of 0.3g on a 40m acceleration track, after which it can merge with no assistance from the other pods (in a practical system, they would clearly cooperate). Assuming you achieve 90% of full 2s capacity, a pod will wait an average of 20 seconds for it's slot - queues should not form outside of very busy stations, that would be connected to very thick pipes anyway.

> How do you avoid empty returns to the busy area?

You might need to return empty, you might not. There might be a triangular route available that can maintain fullness throughout. You could build a buffer in anticipation of the rush hour. The train absolutely needs to follow the same route back at the same time interval and there is no way to reallocate part of the return capacity to the forward, overloaded route by a simple lane direction reversal. (to clarify, I am talking about maximizing peak capacity at rush hour on a given overloaded segment, there would be significant empty runs during the rest of day like in any other system).

> At higher scales, one train tunnel is just enough at the terminus stations

That's because you only have underground trains to places where a full tunnel makes economic sense, so the city is substantially under-served.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by Retric on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @07:37AM (#17557348)
2 second gaps needs ~20 passengers per pod and a lot of pods which get pricy. That's looking a lot more like a subway train than the kind of routable cars people like to talk about. Further, subway trains move at 60MPH making 2 second gaps a safty issue.
Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:57PM (#17560046)
>2 second gaps needs ~20 passengers per pod

Sorry, I don't follow. Why can't a 2 person pod reach 40 Km/h and maintain 22m spacing between pods?

As for the number/price of the pods, the relevant metric is price per passenger. A Subway train costs about $10.000 per standing seat, with the bulk of costs going to infrastructure, not rolling stock. So with cheaper infrastructure and a $20.000 2 person pod, we are cost competitive with standing seats in a packed subway, at much higher passenger comfort.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by Retric on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @03:16PM (#17561276)
> Why can't a 2 person pod reach 40 Km/h and maintain 22m spacing between pods?

2 seconds at 40 Km/h is safer but that has other problems.

Remember, Pods don't have zero length they take up space which decreases the pods per hour. A 2 person 3 meter pod with 22 meter spacing at 40 Km/h = 2 * 40,000m / (3m + 22m) = 3,200 people per hour if they are all 100% full.

That's a long way from a subway's capacity unless you want to build 20 lanes per subway you are replacing. Going faster means more pods, but you also need to increase following distance. Slower is safer, but means trips take longer.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by windows_tips on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:30PM (#17554720)
Running small pods underneath roads doesn't seem like it would really increase throughput much at all, while being significantly harder to build and maintain than the area directly above it.
Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by patrickg_zill on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:15PM (#17554653)
Actually a lot of this spending could be avoided if you could convince the government to let you embed a single wire in the asphalt along with some RFID tags.

Everything that is expensive and unreliable is because they assume an embedded wire is not going to be allowed/done by the people managing the roads.

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by tomp on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:22PM (#17554685)
Why would the wire help you? If you needed precise location information, couldn't the company just add some markers throughout the city? Either stamp large QR codes on corners and traffic lights, or put thousands of Wi-Fi routers around the town, that would help the vehicle triangulate... The latter doesn't even require permission, just money!
Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:21PM (#17554680)
That would help surely. But I would say the main problem in this space is not the infrastructure - Tesla meltdown aside - it's the other drivers.
Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by megaremote on Tuesday July 17, 2018 @08:51PM (#17554806)
What would that cost on every road?
Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by voxadam on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @12:33AM (#17555603)
Apart from not being buried what you're describing sounds an awful lot like Personal Rapid Transit (PRT). WVU has been operating their PRT system since 1975.

https://transportation.wvu.edu/prt

Re:Zoox and Its $800M Robo Taxi Dream [video] by bumholio on Wednesday July 18, 2018 @06:06AM (#17556849)
Sure. Developments in self driving and electric vehicles, ride hailing and general automation make PRT a much more convincing proposal today and a genuine public transport alternative to the personal car, which collective vehicles with rigid routes will never be.

All while avoiding the seemingly insurmountable difficulties of fully autonomous driving on congested and chaotic city roads.