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Re:Lisp and Haskell (2017) by coldtea on Sunday July 15, 2018 @09:41AM (#17535185)
>Speaking of tests, recently I discovered that Zach Beane AKA Xach, an über-level Common Lisp hacker doesn’t usually write tests. FYI, he is the author of Quicklisp, that is something like (but not quite) Cabal or Stack. Quicklisp is de-facto the only widely used library manager in Common Lisp world, and so it’s written in Common Lisp and doesn’t have any tests. It’s a wonder for me how it’s not breaking!

Why is it "a wonder"? We could, and did, write robust code, for decades before testing and TDD became a thing.

Re:Lisp and Haskell (2017) by 0xcde4c3db on Sunday July 15, 2018 @10:47AM (#17535447)
I think the bigger problem, conceptually, is the assumption that tests are necessarily something you write and not something you do. There's nothing wrong with having automated tests, but they're a supplement to hands-on testing, not a replacement for it.
Re:Lisp and Haskell (2017) by nine_k on Sunday July 15, 2018 @09:59AM (#17535256)
Informal and manual testing was a thing back then, though. Building a large project is usually a good, nearly exhaustive test suite for a build system.

Also, if memory serves, things that I had to deal with in late 1980s and early 1990s were vastly simpler than what is normal today. Manual testing was more feasible.

Re:Lisp and Haskell (2017) by lvh on Sunday July 15, 2018 @09:58AM (#17535251)
But Quicklisp exists today. Are you suggesting testing is unnecessary or ineffective? If it is effective, why wouldn't Quicklisp use it?
Re:Lisp and Haskell (2017) by coldtea on Sunday July 15, 2018 @12:30PM (#17535892)
>But Quicklisp exists today.

So? Tons of the software of the 70s and 80s exists today too. In COBOL form, it powers some of the more critical banking, government, etc, systems. In C form, it powers just about everything else.

>Are you suggesting testing is unnecessary or ineffective?

Of course it's ineffective. It can only prove the present of errors, not their absence.

>If it is effective, why wouldn't Quicklisp use it?

Because the need for testing also depends on how often you refactor and change your code, and how many bugs you're likely to put in it in the first place (based on the complexity of the domain, your skills, etc). I'd say both of those things are no issues for Quicklisp.

So, if having no tests works for Quicklist, and the program doesn't have many bugs people complain about, then that's it.

If a codebase works, is used, and doesn't seem to have bugs people complain about, we should also consult with reality when deciding if it's worth our time to write tests for it, not just some a priori ideology that they're necessary.